Found'em, Can't Hunt'em

[20citori20]

Don't remind me Cranfield!  I will surely miss the pigeon shooting here, but plan to visit at least once a year for a shoot.  There has got to be pigeons where I'm going.  Maybe not in these numbers, but even a 25 bird shoot is to fun to pass on.

We have drawn the attention of "people" on both shoots this year.  Law Enforcement!  We have had sheriff deputies respond to the field’s reference complaints on us shooting.  Although we have permission and are shooting safely, people around these parts stick their noses in other folks business.  The deputies are required to ask questions and then tell the complainants we are doing nothing wrong.  Sometimes the officer's and complainants try calling the game warden to further harass us.  Unfortunately they have a hard time getting a hold of us .  As you know, it requires a good bit of scouting to put a shoot together.  I assume folks who don't have the benefit of scouting during their work related activities would have a hard time finding birds.  I don't know why retired folks around here don't pursue them though.  Have you had any good shoots since the last time we spoke?

[Cranfield]

No shooting in the last week, as I,ve been sea fishing in Ireland.

 

However, the arrival of some new decoys, floaters and other bits, will inspire me to go forth sometime this week and harrass the local pigeon population.

 

A lot of the rape is being harvested now and as we flew in to the airport at Stanstead, Essex , I noticed, what appeared to be ,wheat fields being cut.

This can be one of the best times of the year in this part of England.

The only problem is that the pigeons are almost spoilt for choice.

You have to be careful not to overshoot a "good" field , or the birds will relocate, if you are really unlucky, they relocate to fields you have no access to.

 

Is it possible, or customary, over there to pay the landowner/farmer for your pigeon shooting ?

This would give you some exclusivity and security.

 

Are you sure you can,t get back to those good pigeon fields more than once a year?

My friends in Georgia and Alabama, think nothing of a 300 mile round trip drive for a days fishing or hunting.

With our roads a journey like that would take all day.

 

It seems that permission to shoot pigeons is a lot easier to get in the US, than in this part of the UK.

The shooting here is jealously guarded and in some areas its a "closed shop".

Seems a lot easier in the North of England, but then most things are. :evil:

(Immediately takes cover)

[20citori20]

We have shot birds more than once in the same field.  It usually consists of a few flocks passing just out of range and landing at the other end of the field.  If you don't take the two hundred yard walk to flush them out every flock coming to the field joins them.  I checked the field a few days ago we shot and a fraction of the numbers still remained. Most were using an adjacent bean field convienatly located between two homes.  Possibilities are present but can be frustrating.  We will usually seek another population using a different location and keep tabs on the hunted flock and hunt them after they switch fields.  They don't seem near as weary in a different location.  

The idea of lease hunting is spreading east across the U.S. in a hurry.  Western states have leased huge parcels of ground for big game and waterfowl for decades.  Unfortunately, I don't agree with it and feel it will only add to the shrinking number of hunters in parts of the U.S.  The average Joe will no longer be able to afford to hunt.  This has already happened on large tracks of paper company ground in my state.  Ten guys will lease 2000 acres that 50 average men used to turkey, deer, and grouse hunt for most of their lives.  The problem with lease hunting for pigeons is that the birds will usually only use a particular field once every three years when the crop rotation returns to wheat.  And even then they will use an adjacent field for no apparent reason.  We don't have people pursuing pigeons here.  A few old timers that used to hunt them remain.  They will tell stories of 500 to 600 bird shoots!  I can't even begin to imagine what a shoot like that would be like.  I think cities years ago consisted of single populations that would concentrate in one field.  Urban sprawl has created separate populations of birds located miles apart that rarely concentrate in the same field or location.  

I'm certain gaining access here is easier, but people are surely losing their "connection with the land" if you will.  We just gained permission from a farmer to hunt a good group of birds.  He said he had contracted histoplasmosis (or however you spell it) from pigeon dropping in his hay a year ago.  Once mom and daughter found out there was going to be guns on the property they shut us down.  These are the new and improved never been introduced to hunting farmers.  There are old timers still around that fed themselves on wild game and fauna.  Unfortunately, their kids have been raised in an era of economic growth coupled with bad gun publicity.  Hunters are no longer a usual part of society but rather a group of gun toting barbarians.  Getting permission in some instances can include a tongue lashing, hence a big factor for me moving from this area.  Good luck with the pigeons.

[20citori20]

We have shot birds more than once in the same field.  It usually consists of a few flocks passing just out of range and landing at the other end of the field.  If you don't take the two hundred yard walk to flush them out every flock coming to the field joins them.  I checked the field a few days ago we shot and a fraction of the numbers still remained. Most were using an adjacent bean field convienatly located between two homes.  Possibilities are present but can be frustrating.  We will usually seek another population using a different location and keep tabs on the hunted flock and hunt them after they switch fields.  They don't seem near as weary in a different location.  

The idea of lease hunting is spreading east across the U.S. in a hurry.  Western states have leased huge parcels of ground for big game and waterfowl for decades.  Unfortunately, I don't agree with it and feel it will only add to the shrinking number of hunters in parts of the U.S.  The average Joe will no longer be able to afford to hunt.  This has already happened on large tracks of paper company ground in my state.  Ten guys will lease 2000 acres that 50 average men used to turkey, deer, and grouse hunt for most of their lives.  The problem with lease hunting for pigeons is that the birds will usually only use a particular field once every three years when the crop rotation returns to wheat.  And even then they will use an adjacent field for no apparent reason.  We don't have people pursuing pigeons here.  A few old timers that used to hunt them remain.  They will tell stories of 500 to 600 bird shoots!  I can't even begin to imagine what a shoot like that would be like.  I think cities years ago consisted of single populations that would concentrate in one field.  Urban sprawl has created separate populations of birds located miles apart that rarely concentrate in the same field or location.  

I'm certain gaining access here is easier, but people are surely losing their "connection with the land" if you will.  We just gained permission from a farmer to hunt a good group of birds.  He said he had contracted histoplasmosis (or however you spell it) from pigeon dropping in his hay a year ago.  Once mom and daughter found out there was going to be guns on the property they shut us down.  These are the new and improved never been introduced to hunting farmers.  There are old timers still around that fed themselves on wild game and fauna.  Unfortunately, their kids have been raised in an era of economic growth coupled with bad gun publicity.  Hunters are no longer a usual part of society but rather a group of gun toting barbarians.  Getting permission in some instances can include a tongue lashing, hence a big factor for me moving from this area.  Good luck with the pigeons.

[Cranfield]

I don,t support large areas of land being leased by a few hunters to the detriment of others.

My point was that if you came to an "arrangement" with the owner of the fields you shoot, it protects your shooting rights.

Your comment on crop rotation does rather kill the idea stone dead, unless you lease loads of fields.

 

The "new breed" farmer is evident over here. Farms are more frequently owned by a Company and the "Farmer" is a Manager.

He often has no authority to permit shooting on the land.

Fortunately, there is still sufficient Farmer/Owners who see the value of effective crop protection, so all is not doom and gloom.

 

Do you get involved in any other hunting ?

[20citori20]

Didn't mean to imply that you would support something like that.  So far we are safe in the area of pigeon hunting.

Other types of hunting?  Groundhog (centerfire), duck and goose (when it's really good and in North Dakota every year), squirrel (.22), Morning Dove, pheasant (Iowa), turkeys (Ohio and Kentucky w/ a bow and shotgun), coyotes (centerfire, just starting), deer (bow only, it is my true passion and the one I would choose if I could only do one), and rabbit (not much anymore since my beagle died).  Oh yeah, fishing is a must too!

Shot the blackbird lot today.  I used my brand new .410.  I shot 275 rounds.  Needless to say, the action isn't as stiff as it was earlier today!  I'm not sure how hot a barrel can safely get but on a few occasions I had to stop because it was too hot to touch     .  I wish I could do more for the farmer but it's a futile cause.  His barn frame supports have 5 to 6 inches of bird droppings piled on them.  If termites ever eat all the wood away I'm certain the sh-t will hold up the building :laugh: What other bird and beast do you pursue?

[Cranfield]

I only use a shotgun and so rifle or bow shooting is not available to me.

We don,t have groundhogs, turkeys or coyotes, but we have all of the rest and a few more.

 

I use to shoot driven pheasant and partridges, but gave up my syndicate memberships when I had problems with my right eye (ultimately lens replacement).

My wildfowling was done many years ago when it was accessible freely to most people. Now it is mostly privately controlled shooting.

 

I have shot foxes, mostly at harvest time and I use to net rabbits using ferrets.

The last hare I shot was over 20 years ago.They became very scarce in our part of the country and its nice to see them making a comeback.

 

Not being a rifle man, I have never shot deer and have never had an interest in "big game", I much prefer "bird" shooting, but I will defend the right of other shooters to pursue these animals.

 

Rats, squirrels, starlings, crows, rooks, magpies, jays and a few other "extras" present themselves as targets on occassions and are dealt with accordingly.

 

I got the impression that in most parts of the US they are reintroducing coyotes, as they have been disappearing.

I now have a sneaky idea where they have been going.

 

I am suprised that such shooting activity doesn,t either wipe out the local black bird population or at least persuade them to move to another area.

We will have to send a few of the Forum members over to give you a hand.

In Europe they use large nets strung between buildings and trees to catch the birds in circumstances similar to what you describe. Not very sporting, but very effective.

 

Rarely have my gun barrels become "too hot, to hold", but I do have a leather hand sleeve that fits on my sidebyside, for that purpose.

In the old days they use to shove the musket barrels in to tubs of water, to cool them down during battles. I have always thought that this would distort the metal after a while.

What you need is two guns and a "loader".

 

Its not often that the problem is too many targets.

[20citori20]

Two guns and a loader!?  Good idea.  I would have to buy another .410 though.  Guess that's not all bad.  The numbers of blackbirds on this farm can only be imagined.  Smaller cattle lots have blackbirds too, but after a couple shots the gig is up.  It is adjacent to a highway that it bordered by power lines.  Starting this time of year (young begin to fly) the birds begin to group up and migratory restlessness sets in.  During peak migration the birds will follow this highway for miles to this farm.  It has truly become a migratory stop for the birds.  It's impossible to discourage their feeding and watering.  I sat next to cattle trough full of food and shot my heart out trying to prevent a bird from snagging a piece of feed.  I succeeded for a couple hours.  After I ran out of shells it took all of 10 minutes for swarms of flocks to concentrate on the feed.  This was an average day.  It's truly incredible.

Our coyote situation has occurred from natural expansion of their geographical range.  Over the past 50 years or so the coyote has pushed eastward as civilization clears the deciduous forests.  They are an open country species that adapts well to urban environments. That is exactly what the eastern U.S. is now comprised of.   I had one yesterday evening, while I was jogging, run across the road in front of me.  I was in a neighborhood that surrounds a short weed field.  It was mousing or maybe looking for a house cat or small rat like dog!  Most people are clueless that they live amongst us.    Some will tell you the wildlife agencies stocked them to control the deer herd.  Not so.  I think of them as sort of the special forces of the animal kingdom. They are able to survive anywhere.  Very secretive.  Adaptable.  No doubt will be the last mammal in the event of a catastrophic event (along with the rat and cockroach).

Duck and goose hunting are really on the way out for me too.  Tired of tripping over people to shoot 2 ducks.  Pheasants are all but gone around here.  Farming practices changed, fencerows where torn out, old fields cropped and the pheasants extirpated.  There is something special about zapping a groundhog hundred's of yards out in the middle of a bean field that will make me continue to seek those opportunities.  I guess wing shooting doves, pigeons and blackbirds along with bow hunting deer and turkey is all I need to keep me busy and happy.

[Cranfield]

Its strange how some  migratory birds have such a strong instinct and others seem to have changed their lifestyles completely.

I live near loads of lakes (good fishing country), they are populated by Canada, Brent and Greylag Geese.

These birds are supposed to migrate back to Iceland (or somewhere similar) in the Spring to breed and return in the Winter.

What has happened over the years is that they don,t go back.

They remaion here , breed and raise their young.

There is also some interbreeding with escaped domestic geese.

 

A lot of the local Mallard have interbred with escaped farm/pet ducks as well, causing some very weird looking concotions to be flying around.

 

Our fox has become a very urban terrorist over the years and is more common in some back gardens in the towns, than in country lanes.

A ride in to London on the train will show you loads of them running around on the railway embankments, just yards from homes and offices.

Not as big as a coyote, but one of our biggest shootable mammals.

 

Do you turkey hunt on public land ?

Can you call your own turkeys, or do you use a guide ?

I have become quite fascinated by turkey shooting and intend to try it (shotgun), probably on my next visit to Georgia (which could be in October  )

 

I,m lucky to have two main sporting interests.

When the pigeon shooting gets hard or slow...........I go fishing

[20citori20]

Let me warn you Cranfield, if you don't want to become infatuated with the sport of turkey hunting, don't try it.  It's a disease! I couldn't imagine what all the excitement was surrounding the killing of a bird on the ground.  I figured if I didn't have to swing through to kill it, it wasn't worth killing with a shotgun. How wrong I was.  Just remember who warned you.  

I kill birds on both public and private.  I have hunted as far south as Mississippi.  We did a float hunt down there.  No guides.  Half the hunt is calling the bird in yourself.  It's an easy sport to get into.  There is plenty of literature out there to prepare you for a hunt.  Every bird will have it's own personality and will react to certain calls differently.  Some will be easy to kill but others you may never even get a chance to see.  Calling is only 20% of the game.  I am not an expert.  Never will be.  Learn something different every hunt.  But I have put my share of birds in the oven; hence, why I now do it with a bow.  Eighty percent of the game is set-up and energy!  Put yourself where that bird likes to be, is going to be, or feels safe being and there is a good chance of killing him.  Energy is required to put ones *** in that position.  Sounds stupid but hear me out.  I kill birds because I can get up and down hills, out and around obstacles, through creeks and over high walls.  I usually hunt the hills and on large tracks of ground.  The average turkey hunter is lazy and rarely travels more than a quarter mile from his truck.  Of coarse, not all terrain that turkeys inhabit is like what I am explaining.  Where I live it's flat with small wood lots.  Here it takes more finesse to get into a good position and less energy.  But then again, I consider brainpower energy too.  Have a go at it, but remember what I told you.  You will become possessed    :evil:

Found a good number of birds in a wheat field today. These are the same birds we killed in the beans.  We are going to try a hunt in a couple days.  Hopefully their "experience" a couple weeks ago has been diminished enough not to remind them of what our battery operated decoy looks like!  I'll let you know how we do.  Birds offering you any opportunities?

[Cranfield]

Being a "foreigner" I will have my first exposure to turkey hunting in the company of an expert. Dewey Johnson is a top Georgia Guide, who I have met and become great friends with through our shared interest in speckled trout and redfish fishing along the Panhandle.

He has pestered me for some years to go on a hunt with him and I am going to accept.

 

We had a "dry run" 2 years ago, when he called up some birds out of season and we weren,t all cammo-ed up etc.

That was a fair old hike to find the birds and we moved location quite a few times before he found cooperative birds.

I found out afterwards that the birds are very difficult to call at that time of year. His success was even more meritable because of that.

 

One of the big benefits of having shooting and fishing as interests........you get the chance to visit and see some wonderful places.

 

I believe I have mentioned that we have no public shooting land in the UK, except the foreshore below the high water mark, in some areas, but not in others........very confusing.

 

The length of a pigeons memory is quite a debateable issue.

Some people credit them with almost super inteligence and others give examples of their stupidity.

I suspect its somewhere in between, as usual.

I do know that they can quickly become "spooky" at seeing decoys, on a well shot field. Thats happened to me quite a few times.

 

The weather in our area has warmed up and there is very little wind. I don,t like going pigeon shooting in these conditions.

Neither party seems to be very interested.

I want to sit in the hide and doze and the pigeons want to be somewhere else after just one shot.

 

I much prefer it overcast and windy with not quite so many alternative feeding opportunities for the pigeons.

I must add that the situation varies considerably around the UK.

 

Is there a commercial market for pigeons or doves in the US ?

[20citori20]

You have a friend that is a good guide.  I consider that very different than driving to a property to hunt with a guy you have never met.  Sounds like you have great contact there.  I agree that hunting and fishing is a great catalyst for travel and new experiences.  I have put together hunts on public properties in other states just using the Internet.  Most all have been rewarding; all have been fun and interesting.  There is no market for pigeon meat here although it is legal to sell or trade them.  Most all game species with exception of a few parts (i.e. antlers, hides) are illegal to buy, sell or barter.  The Migratory Bird Treaty Act put a halt to the commercialization of waterfowl and shorebirds in the early 1900's.  It initialized seasons and separated game from nongame species as well as prohibiting spring shooting.  States have adopted similar regulations on game animals to protect them from commercialization.  As a matter of fact, we just concluded a two-year covert investigation on the selling of flathead catfish to pay lakes here in Ohio.  I believe approximately 145 citations were issued to 75 individuals who had caught wild flathead catfish and sold them to private organizations who put them in ponds.  They collect monies from people interested in fishing these locations.  All wild animals are property of the state and held in trust for the people of the state, even if they are on private property.  The ability to manage wildlife on public and private lands has allowed many game and nongame species to reach all time highs.  The system works well and ensures equal opportunity and a bright future for hunters.  

Out of curiosity, what would a 1000 new or once fired Winchester AA .410 hulls cost you (if they are available)?

[Cranfield]

We have very strict rules in the UK on the movement of fish fromwater to water.Even land/water owners have to have the correct licences todo this.

We also have problems with illegal imports from Europe, notably specimen sized carp from France. There is quite a business in fish smuggling. Private syndicates, more than Pay to Fish waters, will pay large sums for such fish.

 

I am not sure if you can buy cartridge cases only, new or used.

When I reloaded, I went to the local clay shooting ground and picked them up.

Hopefully, one of the lads can answer this question.

Does this help ? www.4-10.freeuk.com/cases.html

 

Not wishing to be irreverant, but are the flathead catfish the ones you eat ?

I must confess to being partial to catfish fillets cooked anyway you like.

Just don,t want no grits.

[Cranfield]

Further to the .410 hulls question.

 

I have made numerous enquiries and cannot locate any .410 hulls.

New and unused ones don,t seem to be available at all.

Used ones can occasionally be found at Clay Shoot grounds, but the .410 is not a popular gun with clay shooters apparently.

I was also told that you have to have permission from the Shooting Ground owner before you remove empty cartridge cases that you have not shot yourself.

Although they are "rubbish", they are his "rubbish".

Technically its stealing.

 

It was also pointed out that with Winchester .410 2 1/2" @ $13.55 per 25 and 3" @ $14.00 per 25.

Gamebore .410 2 1/2" $6.70 and 3" @ $7.25. (my currency conversion are approx), not many people were interested in re-loading.

 

I am sure unused hulls must be available somewhere, but where ?

[markadams]

The thread seems to be talking a lot about reloading, I am interested in trying this but have never seen the materials available to try it.

 

I understand that no saving is made but I am more interested in the reusing of old cases as I feel guilty about throwing away so many used cases.

 

Can anyone tell me how I go about starting to reload 12 Gauge cartridges in the UK.

 

Mark.

[Cranfield]

Hi Mark,this topic has been all over the place, but its on reloading at present.

 

Try  http://www.alliantpowder.com/beginner/how_to_cartridges.php

 

Click on "shotgun shell" at the index on the left hand side of the page under, "Reloading your first".

 

I hope this helps.

[20citori20]

I would certainly think if your shotgun shells can be purchased cheaper in the UK that your components would follow suit.  I figure a manufacturer of shells is charging for components and processing.  Process your self and save!?  

Reloading .410 here is not optional except for the filthy rich.  They are expensive.  About $7.00 for 25.  .410 shooters actually seem to be increasing though.  At least for dove, skeet and sporting clay shooters who don't compete for cash.  I have shot both my 20 and .410 at the blackbird lot and I don't notice any difference out to thirty except for recoil and the weight of my wallet.  I'm sure when I have an off day with the .410 it will only seem that much worse.  

Shoot pigeons tomorrow   .  They were pouring in the wheat field today.  Can't wait.

[markadams]

Cranfield,

 

Thank you for your message, I looked at the web site it is very interesting.  I noticed that it is an american site, do you know any english companies that supply reloading equipment?

 

Do you know the prices for powder, wads, shot etc?

 

Thank you

 

Mark Adams.

[Cranfield]

Mark, here are two more suggestions.

 

http://directory.google.com/Top/Recreation/Guns/Reloading/

 

http://directory.google.com/Top....ponents

 

Both sites are Web Page Lists that cover these subjects.

 

Your local Gunshop may be able to help out as well.

If you start to reload your own cartridges, its probable that you will not be buying the powder, shot etc in quantities that will enable you to buy from a Manufacturer/Supplier in the first instance.

You will therefore need to contact a Gunshop anyway.

 

I,m sorry that this is not a lot of help, but I ain,t a re-loader. I,m one of the "filthy rich" that 20citori20 refers to.  

[20citori20]

I suppose we should start another topic, like you suggested, before we get to page 10.  It may be wise to note that reloading for me only becomes substantially economical if I buy components by bulk.  No fewer than 5000 primers and wads and 8 lbs. of powder- plus good hulls.  Bad hulls make for more swearing than reloading   .

Had another great shoot yesterday totaling 251 birds.  I video tapped most of it.  Actually, I just pointed the camera over the decoys and reached out of the blind and turned it on when birds were coming!  A fair number of the shots took place outside the screen.  I'll have a better setup next time.  I'm going to miss the shooting when I leave.  Hoping there is some activity where I'm heading.