kent Posted February 19, 2012 Report Share Posted February 19, 2012 Its a sad reflection on modern stalking that so many are spending so much with very few witnessed kills. If you go out with a pro-stalker on a paid for stalk then expect to see deer, if not on the first then on the second- no sighting on the third then dont use them again and tell others. Note i am not saying opertunity for a shot,just seeing deer regular (on thier ground, not out of the veichle on anothers ground). Forget signs on the ground, if there are enough deer to charge for stalking by the day then you should be seeing them. Sign on the gound like slot marks a crotties are no use to you if they occur in the middle of the night, deer pushed hard almost every day tun nocturnal. If you want to look for sign look for well tramped paths to high seats and bootprints from various different boots. There are some right cowboys and rip off merchants out there, its disapointing to hear the tales of money wasted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FOXHUNTER1 Posted February 19, 2012 Report Share Posted February 19, 2012 I cant believe you guys have spent £2000 and not shot your 3 required deer :blink: I would be suicidal if I was you !! I completed my Level 2 in 2 days , it would have been 1 day but the AW would not accept my 4 deer shot on the day , only accepting 2 . I had to stalk another day to get my 3rd beast. I would think carefuuly in future who you book with as it seems you are choosing the wrong outfitters ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redgum Posted February 19, 2012 Report Share Posted February 19, 2012 Its a sad reflection on modern stalking that so many are spending so much with very few witnessed kills. If you go out with a pro-stalker on a paid for stalk then expect to see deer, if not on the first then on the second- no sighting on the third then dont use them again and tell others. Note i am not saying opertunity for a shot,just seeing deer regular (on thier ground, not out of the veichle on anothers ground). Forget signs on the ground, if there are enough deer to charge for stalking by the day then you should be seeing them. Sign on the gound like slot marks a crotties are no use to you if they occur in the middle of the night, deer pushed hard almost every day tun nocturnal. If you want to look for sign look for well tramped paths to high seats and bootprints from various different boots. There are some right cowboys and rip off merchants out there, its disapointing to hear the tales of money wasted. Put money to something and it almost always goes down the same, forgetting DMQ's but just paid stalks, how often do people shoot a deer. This is a subject for a new post for sure. On one of my best permissions I see deer almost everytime I stalk, not just talking one but groups of 6 upto 18,slot marks everywhere and you can smell em. Do I shoot one every visit, absolutly no way, they are not stupid. They did like a nice open place in the woods, until I installed a highseat and shot one. Often I stalk em for an hour and they just melt away but its still great fun and its only cost me diesel. I think the idea of stalking deer and the reality of it is why there are almost as many 243's for sale on guntrader as .22lr's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cooter Posted February 19, 2012 Report Share Posted February 19, 2012 I always set out to complete the DSC2 as close to the book as possible, by doing three or four stalks with three different AW's. Part of the £2k cost is not the stalk it's the travel and accommodation. On all the stalks I have seen deer, sometimes lots of them, but the normal problems are, no safe or clear shot (always my decision), wrong sex, out of season. There is a lot more to going out with an experienced stalker than just shooting the deer, but I have now got beyond the point that I want to get my DSC2 signed off, so I have already decided I will go down the Park Cull route if I haven't got it done by the end of this summer. I don't blame the stalk organiser, as every time they have tried their upmost to get me on the deer, and it is easy to tell when someone is genuinely working hard, but I have to say I have learnt a lot more from not shooting deer than if I had and I have met some really nice shooters as well. In the same period of time I have been trying to complete my DSC2 I have shot twenty six munties, one CWD and a roe doe on my own permission and shot thirty five head of deer, mostly fallow with a few reds and Sika thrown in, on cull's. One thing I have noticed is the lack of AW's in my area, although there is no shortage of deer (always nice being close to the Muntjac source), and if it wasn't for that my cost would probably be under £1k. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RC45 Posted February 19, 2012 Report Share Posted February 19, 2012 Vipa, if you use Jelen can you let me know how you get on. I was thinking of using them for my DSC1. Cheers.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vipa Posted February 19, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 19, 2012 Vipa, if you use Jelen can you let me know how you get on. I was thinking of using them for my DSC1. Cheers.. will do but if I use thier all inclusive, short order service it won't be until the autumn/winter.. Suits me as I'm not a trophy hunter and so begrudge paying trophy fees just to get some venison in the freezer! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted February 19, 2012 Report Share Posted February 19, 2012 I always set out to complete the DSC2 as close to the book as possible, by doing three or four stalks with three different AW's. Part of the £2k cost is not the stalk it's the travel and accommodation. On all the stalks I have seen deer, sometimes lots of them, but the normal problems are, no safe or clear shot (always my decision), wrong sex, out of season. There is a lot more to going out with an experienced stalker than just shooting the deer, but I have now got beyond the point that I want to get my DSC2 signed off, so I have already decided I will go down the Park Cull route if I haven't got it done by the end of this summer. I don't blame the stalk organiser, as every time they have tried their upmost to get me on the deer, and it is easy to tell when someone is genuinely working hard, but I have to say I have learnt a lot more from not shooting deer than if I had and I have met some really nice shooters as well. In the same period of time I have been trying to complete my DSC2 I have shot twenty six munties, one CWD and a roe doe on my own permission and shot thirty five head of deer, mostly fallow with a few reds and Sika thrown in, on cull's. One thing I have noticed is the lack of AW's in my area, although there is no shortage of deer (always nice being close to the Muntjac source), and if it wasn't for that my cost would probably be under £1k. He shouldn't have to work hard if numbers are sufficeint to support commercial stalking. Try phoning a few AW's out of your area ask if they would like some muntie stalking in exchange for acting as a witness for you. I have never had the opertunity like many in the N West including many AW's Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ackley Posted February 19, 2012 Report Share Posted February 19, 2012 I cant believe you guys have spent £2000 and not shot your 3 required deer :blink: I would be suicidal if I was you !! I completed my Level 2 in 2 days , it would have been 1 day but the AW would not accept my 4 deer shot on the day , only accepting 2 . I had to stalk another day to get my 3rd beast. I would think carefuuly in future who you book with as it seems you are choosing the wrong outfitters ... if you shot 4 in the same day all done correctly,why wouldnt he accept them ?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ackley Posted February 19, 2012 Report Share Posted February 19, 2012 I always set out to complete the DSC2 as close to the book as possible, by doing three or four stalks with three different AW's. Part of the £2k cost is not the stalk it's the travel and accommodation. On all the stalks I have seen deer, sometimes lots of them, but the normal problems are, no safe or clear shot (always my decision), wrong sex, out of season. There is a lot more to going out with an experienced stalker than just shooting the deer, but I have now got beyond the point that I want to get my DSC2 signed off, so I have already decided I will go down the Park Cull route if I haven't got it done by the end of this summer. I don't blame the stalk organiser, as every time they have tried their upmost to get me on the deer, and it is easy to tell when someone is genuinely working hard, but I have to say I have learnt a lot more from not shooting deer than if I had and I have met some really nice shooters as well. In the same period of time I have been trying to complete my DSC2 I have shot twenty six munties, one CWD and a roe doe on my own permission and shot thirty five head of deer, mostly fallow with a few reds and Sika thrown in, on cull's. One thing I have noticed is the lack of AW's in my area, although there is no shortage of deer (always nice being close to the Muntjac source), and if it wasn't for that my cost would probably be under £1k. I can understand turning down a shot due to safety BUT I though it mattered not the sex or in or out of season,provided you stalked,identified then said BANG when a suitable shot was presented,then go back at a later date to do the dirty bit with a knife if they had deer hung in the larder Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FOXHUNTER1 Posted February 19, 2012 Report Share Posted February 19, 2012 if you shot 4 in the same day all done correctly,why wouldnt he accept them ?? I was told that you werent allowed to complete the Level 2 on the same day. This was a few years ago now , it might have changed since then Im not sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ackley Posted February 19, 2012 Report Share Posted February 19, 2012 I was told that you werent allowed to complete the Level 2 on the same day. This was a few years ago now , it might have changed since then Im not sure. what a load of rubbish sounds like the guy wanted more of your hard earned cash,you shot 4 so prooving your capabilities,even if you cant do it all in one day which is rubbish you would have thought he would have put them down over 2 days,its no skin off his nose only a loss to his wallet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redgum Posted February 19, 2012 Report Share Posted February 19, 2012 what a load of rubbish sounds like the guy wanted more of your hard earned cash,you shot 4 so prooving your capabilities,even if you cant do it all in one day which is rubbish you would have thought he would have put them down over 2 days,its no skin off his nose only a loss to his wallet If you have done three stalks in a day it doesnt necessarily mean they were successful in the eyes of the AW just because it resulted in a dead deer. There are after all 27 elements in the required performance criteria and written evidence needs to be provided and signed off by the AW.If the evidence summitted fails the required standard the paperwork will be returned. Also plenty of scope to fail to make more money on another few stalks,you have to trust your AW. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ackley Posted February 20, 2012 Report Share Posted February 20, 2012 If you have done three stalks in a day it doesnt necessarily mean they were successful in the eyes of the AW just because it resulted in a dead deer. There are after all 27 elements in the required performance criteria and written evidence needs to be provided and signed off by the AW.If the evidence summitted fails the required standard the paperwork will be returned. Also plenty of scope to fail to make more money on another few stalks,you have to trust your AW. why wouldnt a dead deer be sucessfull ?? I wouldnt have thought the shots were unsafe or the AW would have failed him.I have shot with foxhunter 1 many years ago (wasnt going to mention it) and he can find and kill deer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cooter Posted February 20, 2012 Report Share Posted February 20, 2012 I can understand turning down a shot due to safety BUT I though it mattered not the sex or in or out of season,provided you stalked,identified then said BANG when a suitable shot was presented,then go back at a later date to do the dirty bit with a knife if they had deer hung in the larder Correct, but in all cases there were deer of the correct sex in or around the group so we went after them instead, only to never have the opportunity of a safe shot. All part of deer stalking in my experience and great fun at the time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blunderbust Posted February 20, 2012 Report Share Posted February 20, 2012 (edited) I did my DSC L2 over 2 days and I was made to do it as per the portfolio. Each individual stalk was started and followed through right until the beast was hanging in the larder. The relevant paperwork was then done and signed off, my candidates narrative completed before I was even allowed to think about the next stalk. I think if the student is lucky he may just manage it in a day but to be honest if you think about it if each ICR is done as per the book it would be a hard day. My first ICR took from getting out the truck to signing off the paperwork in total 11 hours. Granted I managed to get the other two done the next day but that was a 0600 start and 2100 finish and I had to finish off some of my questions and the last narrative the next morning. I am no novice and have been stalking for well over 30 years but realise that to get anywhere in todays stalking world you need this bit of paper, this is the reason that I eventually decided to do it, along with the fact that I have now retired after 32 years in the uniformed Services and eventually had the time to do it. I have seen on another forum that one person claims to have completed all three ICRs in one afternoon, I am sorry but that is not possible if each ICR is done by the book. Believe it or not I think that this guy is now an approved witness. I am afraid that this is just an insult to the DSC system and should not be allowed to happen, indeed any AW who has signed someone off as having completed 3 full ICRs as they should be done and claiming that said person has done it in an afternoon is just having a laugh and should not be an AW. (Sorry rant over). Vipa, I would recommend doing your DSC L2 in this manner e.g. over 2 days as to be honest with you if you are like me and stumped for time and can't guarantee getting beasts on the ground at the time you manage to book an AW on your own ground, then this is by far the cheapest method. I would much rather pay £700 which included accommodation and get it done and out the way than pay as has been mentioned in one case £2000 and still not have the ticket. Edited February 20, 2012 by Blunderbust Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blunderbust Posted February 20, 2012 Report Share Posted February 20, 2012 I can understand turning down a shot due to safety BUT I though it mattered not the sex or in or out of season,provided you stalked,identified then said BANG when a suitable shot was presented,then go back at a later date to do the dirty bit with a knife if they had deer hung in the larder Actually Aukley it does matter as at the beginning of your stalk you should be briefed by the AW as to what the stalk criteria is before you move off. Before you squeeze the trigger on your stalk you should point out and confirm the beast with the AW. So if you are told that you are to stalk a red Spiker and stalk onto a Hind and point said Hind out as your proposed cull beast then you will fail. Also part of the ICR is to actually shoot the beast. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ackley Posted February 21, 2012 Report Share Posted February 21, 2012 Actually Aukley it does matter as at the beginning of your stalk you should be briefed by the AW as to what the stalk criteria is before you move off. Before you squeeze the trigger on your stalk you should point out and confirm the beast with the AW. So if you are told that you are to stalk a red Spiker and stalk onto a Hind and point said Hind out as your proposed cull beast then you will fail. Also part of the ICR is to actually shoot the beast. thats what they usually say in a Park to try and make it a little bit more difficult,if your doing it on wild land so to speak I would be really annoyed having to turn down the only beast that presented itself,no good the AW saying "we this morning I wnt you to take a roe buck with knobbles on its heads" you would be trying to pass for a very long time playing those games Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blunderbust Posted February 21, 2012 Report Share Posted February 21, 2012 (edited) thats what they usually say in a Park to try and make it a little bit more difficult,if your doing it on wild land so to speak I would be really annoyed having to turn down the only beast that presented itself,no good the AW saying "we this morning I wnt you to take a roe buck with knobbles on its heads" you would be trying to pass for a very long time playing those games Ackley, I don't think it matters where the stalk is done, as it clearly states on the DSC L2 CD and each ICR how the stalk should be conducted. For example, if you look at the PC1.2 Determine the cull animal required and PC 1.6 Select individual Deer to meet the cull requirements then PC 2.2 Shoot Deer safely, humanely and hygienically, according to location and legal requirements. That sort of tells me that part of the test is for you to prove that you are capable of selecting and stalking a specific beast, sex and any others requirements e.g. Spiker/Pricket in season. Then if you did not shoot the required beast you would not be able to go on with the rest of the PC up to PC 2.7 which is for the stalker and AW to confirm status of Deer against the cull requirements. I cant see how if these PC's have not been completed the AW can pass the ICR as complete. Edited February 21, 2012 by Blunderbust Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted February 21, 2012 Report Share Posted February 21, 2012 Ackley, I don't think it matters where the stalk is done, as it clearly states on the DSC L2 CD and each ICR how the stalk should be conducted. For example, if you look at the PC1.2 Determine the cull animal required and PC 1.6 Select individual Deer to meet the cull requirements then PC 2.2 Shoot Deer safely, humanely and hygienically, according to location and legal requirements. That sort of tells me that part of the test is for you to prove that you are capable of selecting and stalking a specific beast, sex and any others requirements e.g. Spiker/Pricket in season. Then if you did not shoot the required beast you would not be able to go on with the rest of the PC up to PC 2.7 which is for the stalker and AW to confirm status of Deer against the cull requirements. I can’t see how if these PC's have not been completed the AW can pass the ICR as complete. Very true, its been a while but i am sure i had to list the cull plan before any actual stalking took place. Meeting the criterea is a very important part of the qual, its not "go and murder three deer please and show me how you gut em". restraint and indentification is shown both important factors. Its up to the candidate to select the right ground if he is pay for the day stalks then he should choose acordingly. Though i dont think cull plans such as " if it's brown it's down" or " got a mouth? Then shoot it" will carry much weight in the portfolio Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ackley Posted February 21, 2012 Report Share Posted February 21, 2012 Very true, its been a while but i am sure i had to list the cull plan before any actual stalking took place. Meeting the criterea is a very important part of the qual, its not "go and murder three deer please and show me how you gut em". restraint and indentification is shown both important factors. Its up to the candidate to select the right ground if he is pay for the day stalks then he should choose acordingly. Though i dont think cull plans such as " if it's brown it's down" or " got a mouth? Then shoot it" will carry much weight in the portfolio its been a while since I did it BUT I have read back through my portfolio and I told the AW what my plans where for the day so I chose what to shoot,its wasnt up to the AW to tell me there only there as an observer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted February 21, 2012 Report Share Posted February 21, 2012 its been a while since I did it BUT I have read back through my portfolio and I told the AW what my plans where for the day so I chose what to shoot,its wasnt up to the AW to tell me there only there as an observer Like i say its part of the criteria to have a formulated cull plan is it not? How the heck does you telling the witness "i choose what i shoot" count as a cull plan. The idea is you show a knoledge of formulation of a cull plan or at least respect one, have one in place and work to it. Desiding on the spot is not an actual cull plan as such. It must be getting on a decade now from when i passed so i shall have to re-read the criteria unless somebody else can say for sure i will butt out now though as this is fast becoming another predictable degeneration Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ackley Posted February 21, 2012 Report Share Posted February 21, 2012 (edited) Like i say its part of the criteria to have a formulated cull plan is it not? How the heck does you telling the witness "i choose what i shoot" count as a cull plan. The idea is you show a knoledge of formulation of a cull plan or at least respect one, have one in place and work to it. Desiding on the spot is not an actual cull plan as such. It must be getting on a decade now from when i passed so i shall have to re-read the criteria unless somebody else can say for sure i will butt out now though as this is fast becoming another predictable degeneration hold on a min here why is this degenarating ?? we are talking about out experiences,if you dont want to play that fair enough then butt out as to telling the AW what one is going to shoot,ever thopught the AW hasnt been or has any knowlegde of the ground hes been ask to observe on we dont all do tests in parks,and the only reason I can see anyone telling you what to shoot in a park as its easy just to pick any beast and shoot it. where does it say one "has to have a cull plan" go into any forest block in Scotland you are expected to cull any deer on site thats in season,in a park its different Edited February 21, 2012 by Ackley Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blunderbust Posted February 21, 2012 Report Share Posted February 21, 2012 (edited) Ackley, I am sorry that you are getting irritated with this thread, but I have to say that having a cull plan is probably the best start to your ICR whether it is in a Deer park or on your own land (where you would already have a cull plan prepared anyway). You mention that you stalk something and say bang no matter what sex it is, then you go and prepare a carcase in the larder if they have one ready. What a load of tosh, if you have not actually shot a beast that is in season and was part of your cull plan or indeed what the AW agreed you should target and shoot then you have not completed an ICR. I think that if this is the case and you are saying that the AW allowed you to say bang and then you went to the larder to finish off then you are not a DSC L2 qualified stalker. I would now ask you to clear this up as if what you are saying is true then once again this is showing the fact that the DSC L2 system is corrupt. Who was your AW and what exactly did he let you away with? Please dont try to change your storey, you have made it quite clear how you completed your DSC L2 and I am intrigued as to who your Level 2 AW was. I can assure you that I am proud of the fact that I completed every PC in the order that it should be done and can proudly say that all three ICR's were done to the full. I am now going to copy this thread and write to the DSC authority and inquire as to why I had to actually kill 3 Deer to achieve my certificate when you have got the same certificate buy pointing at any Deer any sex no matter what the season rules are buy shouting bang. This is just unbelievable and I hope that you come clean so that the AW you used can be stripped of his qualification. Edited February 21, 2012 by Blunderbust Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blunderbust Posted February 21, 2012 Report Share Posted February 21, 2012 hold on a min here why is this degenarating ?? we are talking about out experiences,if you dont want to play that fair enough then butt out as to telling the AW what one is going to shoot,ever thopught the AW hasnt been or has any knowlegde of the ground hes been ask to observe on we dont all do tests in parks,and the only reason I can see anyone telling you what to shoot in a park as its easy just to pick any beast and shoot it. where does it say one "has to have a cull plan" go into any forest block in Scotland you are expected to cull any deer on site thats in season,in a park its different Ackley, The fact that the AW has no knowledge of your ground has no relevance what so ever as to what the cull plan is. He and every other stalker in the world has no interest in your ground but what will interest him is the fact that you know what you are talking about, you have a cull plan and as long as the selected beast fits that plan and is in season then that is acceptable to be included as one of your ICR's. That is of course as long as you have stalked and shot a beast that fits the criteria. What you say about coming across a beast no matter what sex and trying to make it part of your ICR whether it is in season or not and shouting bang is total tosh. When I stalk a beast I look for one that is within my stalk criteria e.g. if I am looking for a yearling Doe but come across a yearling buck, what you are stating is I can shoot it and add it to my cull plan. No of course you are not saying that, so why should you get away with it on an ICR even if you are only shouting “BANG”. Stalking, if you are lucky enough to have a piece of land is all about management, no matter if you just visit for a few times a year or are there on a regular basis. You need to do the job as is required by the estate owner but at the same time you want to keep yourself in the position where you know that you are going to have a strong stock on the ground. Once again back to the cull plan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ackley Posted February 21, 2012 Report Share Posted February 21, 2012 (edited) Ackley, I am sorry that you are getting irritated with this thread, but I have to say that having a cull plan is probably the best start to your ICR whether it is in a Deer park or on your own land (where you would already have a cull plan prepared anyway). You mention that you stalk something and say bang no matter what sex it is, then you go and prepare a carcase in the larder if they have one ready. What a load of tosh, if you have not actually shot a beast that is in season and was part of your cull plan or indeed what the AW agreed you should target and shoot then you have not completed an ICR. I think that if this is the case and you are saying that the AW allowed you to say bang and then you went to the larder to finish off then you are not a DSC L2 qualified stalker. I would now ask you to clear this up as if what you are saying is true then once again this is showing the fact that the DSC L2 system is corrupt. Who was your AW and what exactly did he let you away with? Please don’t try to change your storey, you have made it quite clear how you completed your DSC L2 and I am intrigued as to who your Level 2 AW was. I can assure you that I am proud of the fact that I completed every PC in the order that it should be done and can proudly say that all three ICR's were done to the full. I am now going to copy this thread and write to the DSC authority and inquire as to why I had to actually kill 3 Deer to achieve my certificate when you have got the same certificate buy pointing at any Deer any sex no matter what the season rules are buy shouting bang. This is just unbelievable and I hope that you come clean so that the AW you used can be stripped of his qualification. hold on one min before you get too excited,I said what "does" happen a AW can right you up without pulling the trigger OR they used to able to,just like you USED to be able to shoot form a high seat.its the stalk the ID that matters not the shot matters not who I used,so there is nothing to clear up and where did I say "I shouted bang" so you right to who ever you like,seems its you thats getting irritated tell me how do you manage deer in a scottish forest,you dont know how many are there you may not see one week to week,you are given a cull "figure" to hit for the year, Edited February 21, 2012 by Ackley Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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