Chael Posted July 5, 2006 Report Share Posted July 5, 2006 I am moving into shotguns after playing around with air rifles for a while but I do not know what gauge to get... I was thinking .410 but then the closest I could get my hide to a flight pattern is about 40 yards and dont think that could go that far killing cleanly? Can someone please fill this out to help me? .410 :: safe killing distance = ---yards 28 :: safe killing distance = ---yards 20 :: safe killing distance = ---yards 12 :: safe killing distance = ---yards After I have decided that, what would be a good gun to get (btw I want O/U) I have been looking at the lincoln premier but this is at the extreme top of my <= £500 budget. Any help guys? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunkield Posted July 5, 2006 Report Share Posted July 5, 2006 I would say.... The safe killing distance is limited by your expertise and experience, each of the bores have their limit, but your will be less than their maximum range. Depending on how big you are, I personally would not recommend anything smaller than a 20 bore for moving targets, and if you can handle a 12 bore go for one of those. The chances are you will end up with a 12 bore anyway. My son has a Lincoln 20 bore and gets on very well with it, he is very lightly built 14 year old and doesn't get knocked about by it all. IMHO the most important thing is that it is enjoyable to shoot, by that I mean it doesn't hurt you or make you tired, and you can hit things with it - if you can't do that consistantly not only is it inhumane but you will loose interest very quickly which would be a shame. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hardy Posted July 5, 2006 Report Share Posted July 5, 2006 I'd go with Stuart, stick with a 12g for several reasons. Effective range is way better than a for instance a 410 Availability in your price range is going to be better Cartridges are cheaper - you'll find the need to practice & you soon get through them on clays. In terms of a particular gun model it's very much about what works for you, different guns have very different feels. I'd reccomend heading down to a decent clay ground & taking a lesson. The instructors should have a range of guns you can try & chat with the other folks there. Try as many different makes as possible before chosing one. If you don't feel upto a 12g because of the weight etc consider a semi. I ended up with one for an ex girlfriend as she wasn't strong enough to hold up a 12g & even struggled with a 20. After trying everything at the club & lots of mates guns we ended up with a beretta 301 which worked fine. Once you've got an idea what you want have a look on guntrader - lots of good deals to be had on 2nd hand guns there well within your budget. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baldrick Posted July 5, 2006 Report Share Posted July 5, 2006 Even though I almost always use a 20b, I would recommend a 12b. They're easier to handle, the ammo is cheaper and they are more versatile. Stuart's point above is one to remember re your expertise governing the maximum range. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunkield Posted July 5, 2006 Report Share Posted July 5, 2006 I can't see why the 16 bore isn't more popular. In theory it should be just about the perfect size for anyone who thinks a 12 is abit big and 20 is a bit small, I understand they are popular on the grouse moors but I guess cartridge prices may stop more people from buying them?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chael Posted July 5, 2006 Author Report Share Posted July 5, 2006 Hmmm... has 12 bore got all that more 'grunt' in it than a 20? I know that choice in 12 is better... and cartridge price but I dont know wether I could take the kick long ebough, yes its ok for the number of shots I have tried before but for shooting longer than about 40 mins im not to sure, thats why I was looking at 20, which I can shoulder very well and shoot for a fair time without any pain/soreness in my shoulder. I will have a look at some 12's as the price will eventually effect my choice... thanks for anyone who has so far replied! Make : Bettinsoli Model : DIAMONDLINE Type : Shotgun Mechanism : Over and under Calibre : 12 gauge Barrel Length : 30" Stock Length : Not specified Chokes : 1/4 & 1/2 Price : £495 (New) @ US$915 Ref : 060406/003 Contact : Robert Morgan Company : Adenbourne Field Sports Town : Witney County : Oxfordshire Country : England Telephone : 01993-701 122 Fax : 01993-776 841 Email : <Click here to email> Serial # : 197021 Description : CASED WITH ACCESSORIES I found that on Guntrader... its in my budget 12 bore brand new and cased with accesories... anyone know if that is a good deal or gun? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baldrick Posted July 5, 2006 Report Share Posted July 5, 2006 A lot of people on here swear by Bettinsolis. You could use your £500 budget to shop around for a Miroku etc. If you're getting pain in your shoulder from the recoil on a standard-weight 12b, it's probably they way you mount the gun or the fit of the gun that is the problem. The recoil itself, unless through a lightweight gun, is manageable. In actual fact, using high-velocity/heavy load cartridges in my 20b gives much moire recoil than in a 12b. 20b guns are inherently lighter than a 12b, so there is less mass to absorb the equivalent recoil energy generated by the ammunition. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stupidsalmon Posted July 5, 2006 Report Share Posted July 5, 2006 Hmmm... has 12 bore got all that more 'grunt' in it than a 20? I know that choice in 12 is better... and cartridge price but I dont know wether I could take the kick long ebough, yes its ok for the number of shots I have tried before but for shooting longer than about 40 mins im not to sure, thats why I was looking at 20, which I can shoulder very well and shoot for a fair time without any pain/soreness in my shoulder. I will have a look at some 12's as the price will eventually effect my choice... thanks for anyone who has so far replied! Make : Bettinsoli Model : DIAMONDLINE Type : Shotgun Mechanism : Over and under Calibre : 12 gauge Barrel Length : 30" Stock Length : Not specified Chokes : 1/4 & 1/2 Price : £495 (New) @ US$915 Ref : 060406/003 Contact : Robert Morgan Company : Adenbourne Field Sports Town : Witney County : Oxfordshire Country : England Telephone : 01993-701 122 Fax : 01993-776 841 Email : <Click here to email> Serial # : 197021 Description : CASED WITH ACCESSORIES I found that on Guntrader... its in my budget 12 bore brand new and cased with accesories... anyone know if that is a good deal or gun? I've been eyeing up the exact same gun, From what ive heard they are fine guns however you would benefit from finding a decent s/h one as they dont hold their value very well. However for £495new (havent found any cheaper new diamondlines) i'd def. plump for it of only it was abit closer. Go and see if it fits first tho, Cheers SS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chael Posted July 5, 2006 Author Report Share Posted July 5, 2006 Yes, its such a pity that I happen to live in a country thats been forced to completely restrict non-FAC guns and the type (I do know you need a license for shotty) I (somehow) am lucky enough for a gun dhop to set up a couple of miles down the road from me they do shotguns and I could try alot there, The problem is wether The owner is authorised to let me shoot one (this may sound stupid but gun laws here are strict) I noticed a couple other N.I users on here so if any of you are reading this I would be grateful if you could prompt me here:D EDIT: are remmington shotguns any good? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baldrick Posted July 5, 2006 Report Share Posted July 5, 2006 Remington shotguns are good, although they naturally cater for the US semi-auto/pump-action market. Great guns, if that's what you want. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chael Posted July 5, 2006 Author Report Share Posted July 5, 2006 I think I would prefer the more english, traditional style... like a Bettinsoli lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dazza Posted July 5, 2006 Report Share Posted July 5, 2006 Yes, its such a pity that I happen to live in a country thats been forced to completely restrict non-FAC guns and the type (I do know you need a license for shotty) I (somehow) am lucky enough for a gun dhop to set up a couple of miles down the road from me they do shotguns and I could try alot there, The problem is wether The owner is authorised to let me shoot one (this may sound stupid but gun laws here are strict) I noticed a couple other N.I users on here so if any of you are reading this I would be grateful if you could prompt me here:D EDIT: are remmington shotguns any good? Is the shop on a shooting ground? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chael Posted July 5, 2006 Author Report Share Posted July 5, 2006 no, its a little private fishing and country tackle shop, its been converted from a garage! I do not know wether the shop owner owns an acre of land behind the shop but it seems unlikley as the house beside the shop (where he lives) is a small bungalow, not a farmhouse like most around here, of course there is always a possibility he has permission to shoot on that land because he does quite a bit of lamping Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dazza Posted July 5, 2006 Report Share Posted July 5, 2006 Where in Northern Ireland are you?, have you got your FAC? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chael Posted July 5, 2006 Author Report Share Posted July 5, 2006 I am in Antrim mate, and no we dont have our FAC yet, we need to sse what we are getting first Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dazza Posted July 5, 2006 Report Share Posted July 5, 2006 If you could get to Hollow Farm Clay ground in Comber Co. Down theres a great selection of guns for under £500 including a couple of Beretta's. There would be no problem having a shot with the guns. Did you know it it will take up to six months for your FAC to come through when you apply for it? I sent mine for renewal in March and Im still waiting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chael Posted July 5, 2006 Author Report Share Posted July 5, 2006 I will see if I could get get down there... FACs... yea I knew they could take a long time, hopefully I can get it through in about 4 months Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danielsonson Posted July 5, 2006 Report Share Posted July 5, 2006 £500 go for a second hand italian or Belgian gun, if you can a Beretta or Browning (although try to get one with Stainless barrels), bettinsoli seem ok, maybe even a later Lanber Sporter. don't buy a new lincoln, as soon as you hold it you have lost £150, I know we don't buy guns as an appreciating asset (well most mortals don't) but I think a good quality 2nd hand gun is better than a lower quality new one! also go 12g if you can, generally there will be more choice and more chance of a bargain. DB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunkield Posted July 5, 2006 Report Share Posted July 5, 2006 (although try to get one with Stainless barrels) Chrome, I think you meant, Daniel? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest cookoff013 Posted July 5, 2006 Report Share Posted July 5, 2006 the main part of the decision 12/20/16 the cartridges are the main thing. the loads are so variable in shotguns. because a 12 has the most selection it is more versatile than a 36bore. with a 12 the loads vary from 24g subsonic, to heavy shot 53grams of bb / 2/3 shot. if i was a home loader, 20g might be a better option.....the big "IF". i think its best to evaluate the use of the gun,thencartridges that you would shoot. (its an odd way of looking at it) but the cartridge sellection is one of the main parts of a firearm !! i bought a 12 because its cheap to run. thats the criteria i was going for. i could have bought a 10bore. but for clays and game (as a hobbie) would be usless. i`ve experimented with loads. 24g is nice, 28g is the standard load, 30, little more poke, 36 is for long range punch. the 53 is just over the top. i dont know of any quarry i`d hunt that 53grams would be adequate. cartridge selection is very important. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chael Posted July 5, 2006 Author Report Share Posted July 5, 2006 Thanks for all the information everyone! this is what I have so far... 12 bore is probably better because it has a longer range, there is more selection and the cartridges are cheaper, it also has less kick than some 20 bores. Bettinsoli seems a good gun for new but a second hand browning or berreta may be better, try to get a chrome barrel. A 28 - 36g load would be the best for me I have never seen a chrome barrelled shotgun, has anyone got any pics? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pin Posted July 5, 2006 Report Share Posted July 5, 2006 Hmmm... has 12 bore got all that more 'grunt' in it than a 20? The recoil you feel is a factor of the weight of gun, the size of the charge, the weight of the load and the type of cartridge you use. Modern day 20b carts can have the same load as a medium 12b, but the gun will be lighter generally. When the primer kicks the powder off the shot accelerates causing the energy released to do work against the gun. Since the shot can only go one way, and taking into account Newtons 3rd law "For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction", you feel some of the work being done on the shot as acceleration of the gun into your shoulder (felt recoil). With a 20b the gun has a lower mass so it will accelerate faster into your shoulder than a heavier 12b (given the same load). As has been said you can easily get some 12b loads into a 20b cart and becuase of the ligher gun you will likely feel more recoil at the shoulder in that case. Boring physics over, my advice is to get out there and try as many different guns with different cartridge loads in them as you can, to see how you get on. It is possible to fit thicker recoil pads to just about all guns which will minimise the feeling in your shoulder, this will generally involve making the gun longer and you may need to have a gunsmith shorten the length of the stock so that the gun still fits you properly. Careful choice of cartridges can also reduce the recoil you feel. Semi-autos use some of the energy of the previous shot (mechanically and with gas pressure in some cases) to load the next shell. This has the effect of lowering the felt recoil by the user in most cases, as more of the energy has been used to load the next shell. Hope that helps in some way Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chael Posted July 5, 2006 Author Report Share Posted July 5, 2006 Thank for the lesson teach! seriously though, thanks, that is intresting... I have never tried semi-auto before and don't intend to get one, but I never new it had less kick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunkield Posted July 5, 2006 Report Share Posted July 5, 2006 I have never seen a chrome barrelled shotgun, has anyone got any pics? Erm.. The choming is on the inside of the barrels, it is quite hard so the bores resist wear. Its not a 'gangsta' style thing on the outside if that is what you were thinking? Most (if not all) Beretta's have it, and most Brownings now do as well (but that would need to be verified by someone who knows maore about them than me) If you are concerned about recoil, or kick, you need to know it has more to do with cartridge load and type, and gun weight than it does with bore size. A lightweight 20 bore shooting quick 28gram loads will knock you about a lot more than the same loads through a heavy 12 bore for instance, I wouldn't use any more than 24gram loads in a 20bore for that reason, but many people do quite happily. So a heavy gun is great for loads of clays but a PITA for gragging round fields taking only the occasional shot - you have to weigh up (oops) what you are going to do most of. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chael Posted July 5, 2006 Author Report Share Posted July 5, 2006 oh! that clears it up! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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