SneakyD Posted January 17, 2013 Report Share Posted January 17, 2013 Err... yeah, that old "Hitler tried to ban guns" myth, again... sorry mate, but that was debunked long ago too. Don't any of you guys check your sources before making wild claims? This eye witness seems to disagree http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WPaa7TiK_Gk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lock Stock & Barrel Posted January 17, 2013 Report Share Posted January 17, 2013 This eye witness seems to disagree http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WPaa7TiK_Gk From a gun advocate's rally? Are you serious? Care to post something from an impartial source? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonathanL Posted January 17, 2013 Report Share Posted January 17, 2013 There are roughly 30,000 gun deaths a year in America, of those over 20,000 are accidents. Thats why they need tighter laws, its not about crime or self defence, its about leaving loaded guns around where kids can find them. Thats nothing to do with political rights its just neglegence. Utter rubbish! There are around 600 to 800 firearms related accidental deaths in the US annually. Also, that number has been falling for several years. Check it with the CDC if you don't believe me. As far as fatal shootings go, yes there are around 30k but more than 50% are suicides. J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lock Stock & Barrel Posted January 17, 2013 Report Share Posted January 17, 2013 The Myth Of Hitler’s Gun Ban Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SneakyD Posted January 17, 2013 Report Share Posted January 17, 2013 The Myth Of Hitler’s Gun Ban From your unbiased link :"Under their reign, Jews were prohibited from owning guns" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steppenwolf Posted January 17, 2013 Report Share Posted January 17, 2013 Yes there was gun registration in 1928, so Hitler abused this in 1938 when he went after political opponents guns and Jes. He did actualy make a law saying "No Jew May Be premitted to own a gun." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lock Stock & Barrel Posted January 17, 2013 Report Share Posted January 17, 2013 Yes there was gun registration in 1928, so Hitler abused this in 1938 when he went after political opponents guns and Jes. He did actualy make a law saying "No Jew May Be premitted to own a gun." Tragic. Now you're just making a pathetic and transparent attempt at conflating Hitler's pogroms against the Jews with gun control - do you have an actual argument or lucid proposition to put forward here, or are you merely choosing to fall foul of Godwin's Law at every hand's turn? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SneakyD Posted January 17, 2013 Report Share Posted January 17, 2013 Tragic. Now you're just making a pathetic and transparent attempt at conflating Hitler's pogroms against the Jews with gun control - do you have an actual argument or lucid proposition to put forward here, or are you merely choosing to fall foul of Godwin's Law at every hand's turn? Is it true that the nazis did not allow Jewish people to possess firearms? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steppenwolf Posted January 17, 2013 Report Share Posted January 17, 2013 My argument is that throughout history, tyranny is greatly helped by gun contol and whether that regime has enacted gun control or usd a previous "well meaning law" by a previous administration the end result is always the same: Genocide. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lock Stock & Barrel Posted January 17, 2013 Report Share Posted January 17, 2013 (edited) My argument is that throughout history, tyranny is greatly helped by gun control and whether that regime has enacted gun control or usd a previous "well meaning law" by a previous administration the end result is always the same: Genocide. Other than the usual default "It's the Nazis!" position - Care to cite one example to support your assertion? Edited January 17, 2013 by Lock Stock & Barrel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lock Stock & Barrel Posted January 17, 2013 Report Share Posted January 17, 2013 Is it true that the nazis did not allow Jewish people to possess firearms? What is your contention? Instead of speaking in rhetoric, please explain your position. We've already debunked the myth that Hitler banned ownership of weapons - indeed citing Hitler when waxing poetic about American 'gun control' is both a fallacy and a mistake - and we know that Fascists do not act in democratic ways, as evidenced by Hitler in any number of ways against the Jews and other minorities during the Nazi period, but to try and conflate that with what is happening in the US is both deliberately misleading and a blatant misrepresentation. Once you toss Hitler or the Nazis into any argument in a cheap attempt to make a case, you have already lost the argument. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steppenwolf Posted January 17, 2013 Report Share Posted January 17, 2013 Stalin Russia, Idi amin, Uganda. JUst watch this documentary and it can explain better than I can, because it seems like whetever I say will fall on deaf ears. Also research the term: Democide. The biggest killer of peopel in the Twentieth Century. 290 Million killed by their own governments. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lock Stock & Barrel Posted January 17, 2013 Report Share Posted January 17, 2013 Stalin Russia, Idi amin, Uganda. JUst watch this documentary and it can explain better than I can, because it seems like whetever I say will fall on deaf ears. Also research the term: Democide. The biggest killer of peopel in the Twentieth Century. 290 Million killed by their own governments. OK, your link is from 'Patriots Untied Now', and American gun advocacy group - I asked you earlier to provide us with impartial sources - you seem incapable of doing that - also, merely trying to play the emotive card and listing a series of despots just weakens your case and make you look paranoid. Try again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steppenwolf Posted January 17, 2013 Report Share Posted January 17, 2013 I wasn't trying to play the emotive card but it seems like you are trying to play the trolling card. Your UNBIASED source: http://propagandaprofessor.net/about-me/ "I am a left-handed vegetarian." "(By contemporary standards, this marks me as a “liberal”.)" "I am a multiple award-winning writer. I am also a composer. I’m an avid outdoorsman, but I have absolutely no interest in hunting or fishing." So yeah this guy is going to be unbiased on gun ownership. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SneakyD Posted January 17, 2013 Report Share Posted January 17, 2013 What is your contention? Instead of speaking in rhetoric, please explain your position. We've already debunked the myth that Hitler banned ownership of weapons - indeed citing Hitler when waxing poetic about American 'gun control' is both a fallacy and a mistake - and we know that Fascists do not act in democratic ways, as evidenced by Hitler in any number of ways against the Jews and other minorities during the Nazi period, but to try and conflate that with what is happening in the US is both deliberately misleading and a blatant misrepresentation. I did not post rhetoric, I asked you a direct question. Once you toss Hitler or the Nazis into any argument in a cheap attempt to make a case, you have already lost the argument. I didn't toss Hitler or the Nazis into the argument, I merely addressed your post about the myth of nazi control. The nazis made it easier for their supporters to possess firearms and ensured that their victims could not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lock Stock & Barrel Posted January 17, 2013 Report Share Posted January 17, 2013 I did not post rhetoric, I asked you a direct question. I didn't toss Hitler or the Nazis into the argument, I merely addressed your post about the myth of nazi control. The nazis made it easier for their supporters to possess firearms and ensured that their victims could not. Godwin's Law again - find something impartial and original and you may have a case. Until then... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lock Stock & Barrel Posted January 17, 2013 Report Share Posted January 17, 2013 (edited) From your unbiased link :"Under their reign, Jews were prohibited from owning guns" I wasn't trying to play the emotive card but it seems like you are trying to play the trolling card. Your UNBIASED source: http://propagandapro...r.net/about-me/ "I am a left-handed vegetarian." "(By contemporary standards, this marks me as a “liberal”.)" "I am a multiple award-winning writer. I am also a composer. I’m an avid outdoorsman, but I have absolutely no interest in hunting or fishing." So yeah this guy is going to be unbiased on gun ownership. Selective quotes from those replying to the article - you don't understand how this works, do you? You'll be quoting Wikipedia next. Use the Straight Dope piece I posted earlier, and yet you for some reason conveniently ignore: Did Hitler Try to Ban Gun Ownership?. Edited January 17, 2013 by Lock Stock & Barrel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SneakyD Posted January 17, 2013 Report Share Posted January 17, 2013 Selective quotes from those replying to the article - you don't understand how this works, do you? You'll be quoting Wikipedia next. Lock Stock, I posted a piece of text from your link and asked you if was true. You choose not answer my question. You do not seem to be interested in the honest exchange of ideas and points of view. You seem to believe that, if only you can win the debate on Pigeon Watch (by whatever means necessary), then America must change it's laws to suit you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lock Stock & Barrel Posted January 17, 2013 Report Share Posted January 17, 2013 (edited) Lock Stock, I posted a piece of text from your link and asked you if was true. You choose not answer my question. Correction, you posted from the comments section to the article I posted - and some of the opinions expressed there are just as suspect and paranoid as some of those being posted here. As for the article debunking the Hitler banning guns myth itself, you remain silent - in fact on both articles which do this, you remain silent. You do not seem to be interested in the honest exchange of ideas and points of view. You seem to believe that, if only you can win the debate on Pigeon Watch (by whatever means necessary), then America must change it's laws to suit you. Correction: I'm interested in a proper debate, with well-sourced and impartial (some of you will need to look that word up) material to support any given position - not the mere ramblings and opinions of people who can't be bothered to fact-check their posts before holding forth. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, regardless of how asinine, unsupported or ill-educated it might be - but alas, it remains just that, mere opinion, and exchanging anecdotal and unsupported points-of-view where substantive propositions are required are not the same as actual debate. Nor is posting endless paranoid video clips from YouTube from gun lobby group in the US as, by their very nature, they are partial and not impartial, and hence cannot be taken seriously in this context. As to your last point, anyone reading this can see clearly that I've not advocated that the US "change its laws to suit" anyone - I've merely combatted the stock paranoia "they're coming to take our guns!" voodoo which seem to propagate on these boards. Edited January 17, 2013 by Lock Stock & Barrel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SneakyD Posted January 17, 2013 Report Share Posted January 17, 2013 Correction, you posted from the comments section to the article I posted - and some of the opinions expressed there are just as suspect and paranoid as some of those being posted here. I sorry but that is a lie. I shall post the article you linked to, and make bold the part I quoted previously: Whenever a politician, or anyone else, starts talking about regulating guns, it’s a safe bet that someone will bring up how Hitler supposedly outlawed guns in Germany, which supposedly enabled him to do all the mischief he did. As we’ve noted before, Adolf is a staple reference among propagandists. It’s become an automatic response to compare anyone you don’t like to Der Fuhrer, on the grounds that since he was evil incarnate, everything he ever said or did must also be evil. People have even been known to suggest that since he was a vegetarian, vegetarians are evil. It’s not surprising, then, that you often see this quote pop up: “This year will go down in history! For the first time, a civilized nation has full gun registration! Our streets will be safer, our police more efficient, and the world will follow our lead into the future!” –Adolf Hitler, 1935 Trouble is, Hitler never made such a speech in 1935. Nor is there any record that he ever spoke these particular words at all. This little “speech” was obviously written for him, many years after his death, by someone who wanted you to believe that gun registration is Hitler-evil. What he did say, seven years later, was this: “The most foolish mistake we could possibly make would be to permit the conquered Eastern peoples to have arms. History teaches that all conquerors who have allowed their subject races to carry arms have prepared their own downfall by doing so.” So it’s fair to conclude that he believed “gun control” had its uses. But that’s quite a different thing from claiming that “gun control” was instrumental in the NAZI rise to power. And the truth is that no gun law was passed in Germany in 1935. There was no need for one, since a gun registration program was already in effect in Germany; it was enacted in 1928, five years before Hitler’s ascendancy. But that law did not “outlaw” guns, it just restricted their possession to individuals who were considered law-abiding citizens, and who had a reason to own one. And there’s no reason to consider that law particularly significant, either; the NAZIs didn’t seize control of their own country with gunpowder. They used a much more potent weapon: propaganda. Under their reign, Jews were prohibited from owning guns, just as they were prohibited from doing many things. And it has become an article of faith among the gun culture that had they been armed, the Holocaust would not have happened (that is, among those members of the gun culture who know that the Holocaust really did happen). But the concept of a handful of citizens armed with hunting rifles and Saturday night specials fending off an army is delusional hubris peculiar to gun addicts. On American soil, its most glorious day in the sun has been perhaps Waco. And we all know how well that turned out. The gun culture is right about one thing, however. Hitler really did enact a new gun law. But it was in 1938, not 1935 – well after the NAZIs already had the country in its iron grip. Furthermore, the new law in many ways LOOSENED gun restrictions. For example, it greatly expanded the numbers who were exempt, it lowered the legal age of possession from 20 to 18, and it completely lifted restriction on all guns except handguns, as well as on ammunition. Given all of this, it’s pretty hard to make a case that “gun control” played a significant role in NAZI conquest. In fact, one might well say that when gun addicts brandish Hitler as a weapon, they are unwittingly arguing against their own cause. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lock Stock & Barrel Posted January 17, 2013 Report Share Posted January 17, 2013 (edited) I sorry but that is a lie. I shall post the article you linked to, and make bold the part I quoted previously: Ironically, the article is written for, and about, people like you - those who spread paranoid propaganda; indulge themselves in conspiracy theories with no impartial or credible supporting data to back up their ramblings; those who keep on repeating the same tired old clichéd Godwin's Law conflations between the Nazis and US gun laws - and have a woeful inability to see that whether Hitler removed guns from Jews during his pogroms against them or not, it was, as history teaches us, not the worst thing he did to them, not by a long chalk. And you also forget that even had the Jews been allowed to keep their guns, it would have made no difference to their eventual treatment at the hands of the Nazis. All of which leads us back to one question - what is your point, as you seem to specialise in meandering disconnected rhetoric without making one? Edited January 17, 2013 by Lock Stock & Barrel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SneakyD Posted January 17, 2013 Report Share Posted January 17, 2013 As for the article debunking the Hitler banning guns myth itself, you remain silent - in fact on both articles which do this, you remain silent. I said in post #290, The nazis made it easier for their supporters to possess firearms and ensured that their victims could not. This seems to be inline with facts in the article you mention. I have never said, or believed that Hitler banned all guns from all people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lock Stock & Barrel Posted January 17, 2013 Report Share Posted January 17, 2013 I said in post #290, The nazis made it easier for their supporters to possess firearms and ensured that their victims could not. This seems to be inline with facts in the article you mention. I have never said, or believed that Hitler banned all guns from all people. And how did that work out for the average German? You can't just selectively now opt to punt the "Ah, I never said..." line when you've been whining on about that very thing for the last three pages. Again, what is your point? Please tell me you have one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SneakyD Posted January 17, 2013 Report Share Posted January 17, 2013 - and have a woeful inability to see that whether Hitler removed guns from Jews during his pogroms against them, it was, as history teaches us, not the worst thing he did to them, not by a long chalk. And you also forget that even had the Jews been allowed to keep their guns, it would have no difference to their eventual treatment at the hands of the Nazis. Some nazis would have died in the round up of an armed Jewish population. That I believe would have been a difference worth making . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lock Stock & Barrel Posted January 17, 2013 Report Share Posted January 17, 2013 Some nazis would have died in the round up of an armed Jewish population. That I believe would have been a difference worth making . Alas, history illustrates you're wrong - the Jews had guns in the Warsaw Ghetto, in Lithuania and other pockets of resistance. None of which made a happ'th of difference to the over all outcome and would not have prevented the genocide which was enacted against them. And either way, how has this any relevance to the subject of "gun control" in the US? Or are we back to you being guilty of Godwin's Law again? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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