normski32 Posted October 7, 2006 Report Share Posted October 7, 2006 I have recently purchased a rapid 17 MK1 and i have been advised, by Theoban, to buy a divers bottle to fill up the buddy bottle as appose to using my mannual hills pump. I have enquired about this and I have been informed that using a mannual pump the buddy bottle valve is prone to wear out as it opens and closes on each stroke of the pump, (ovbiously) Has anyone else experienced a buddy bottle vavle "wearing out" or being damaged in any way by using a mannual pump? Or Does anyone know roughly how many buddy bottle (0.4 Ltr) charges i would expect to get if i did carry on using the pump? Many Thanks Norman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roblade Posted October 7, 2006 Report Share Posted October 7, 2006 eerm not too sure i would worry about the buddy bottle being worn out by using a pump, would be more worried about you being worn out using the pump :lol: the best way to use a pump on a high cap buddy bottle is to just top it up after each visit to the fields. Or you could sell the pump get £75ish and put that towards a second hand divers bottle not sure if ramsbottom has got any left but he was bout the cheapest around £160 for a 12ltr 300 bar. The oyl problem you might get is putting a bit of dirt into the rifle with a pump, a divers bottle is 100% clean air and no moisture! You have a rifle costing £700 do you realy want to take the chabce of ********* it up? But i have known people using a pump on a AA EV2 they had it more than ayear without any problems at all. all the best ROB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hunter Posted October 7, 2006 Report Share Posted October 7, 2006 This is not so true.. A pump works by making the same pressure as the bottle. Once the presure in the pump (and pump cable) are the same, the valve in the bottle will reach a neutral presure zone, and will have force from neither side. When you pump again, higher pressure in the pump will open the valve and allow the extra volume of air to flow equally into the buddy bottle. It is only the valve in the pump that will operate, as this valve is the only object between the pressure (200bar?) and the atmosphere. Therefor it will not cause wear on the bottle valve. However, what will damage the bottle seals, is pumping too fast. When air is compressed, it actually becomes very dense, and creates friction like a solid object would. This heats the air and metal up sometimes so high it will cause wear on the metal and valves/seals (rubber 'O' rings, and plastic seals in the valve). When you have finished pumping, you have to releive the pressure from the pump, and line. When this pressure drops bellow the bottle pressure, the bottle valve closes due to the higher pressure compared to atomospheric pressure. The benefit of a 'Scuba bottle is that you can set a slow input flow, and watch it fill without any effort. Note: Scuba bottle users! Only fill your bottles very slowly, as filling a high pressure bottle does two things. Air pressure causes heat friction, and also stretches the metal of the bottle. Filling slowly reduces the stress effects of both side effects of filling your bottle. A bottle filled to quick, will have less pressure later, when the air cools, as warm/hot air is LESS dense the cool air. To get a good volume fill, I suggest filling in two stages. Fill halfway, and leave to cool for 10 minutes. Then fill again to the correct PSI. Also try to 'top up' your guns rather then use them till dry, as this will mean less stress problems on the bottle, and quicker fill times Hope this is some use, I am a little under the influence of Draught Bitter, so I hope I have made some sense Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pin Posted October 7, 2006 Report Share Posted October 7, 2006 Its been touched on, main problems people associate with pumps regard filtration (bits of ****) and moisture. Correctly fitted good quality pump filters will help, they are not perfect though. All diving shops selling breathing air will have an incredibly expensive compressor with an equally expensive filtration system. No matter how good your pump is it probably cost about the same as the diving shop pay for an O ring for the compressor. If you do use a pump, just like diving bottle users should as well, get the gun inspected as per the schedule to make sure its ok and is not corroding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tosspot Posted October 7, 2006 Report Share Posted October 7, 2006 run a rapid seven for several years and it never missed a beat over thousands of shots i always fill from a 12 ltr bottle sold it to a guy who filled it with a stirrup pump and it promptly went pete tong valves ect coincidence??? not the first horror story i've heard about em Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pin Posted October 7, 2006 Report Share Posted October 7, 2006 I've just had a moment of clarity! Buy a pump, and a bottle, then fill the bottle from the pump, then use the bottle to fill the gun! No, wait a minute... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
normski32 Posted October 7, 2006 Author Report Share Posted October 7, 2006 run a rapid seven for several years and it never missed a beat over thousands of shotsi always fill from a 12 ltr bottle sold it to a guy who filled it with a stirrup pump and it promptly went pete tong valves ect coincidence??? not the first horror story i've heard about em please tell me more Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
normski32 Posted October 8, 2006 Author Report Share Posted October 8, 2006 This is not so true.. A pump works by making the same pressure as the bottle. Once the presure in the pump (and pump cable) are the same, the valve in the bottle will reach a neutral presure zone, and will have force from neither side. When you pump again, higher pressure in the pump will open the valve and allow the extra volume of air to flow equally into the buddy bottle. It is only the valve in the pump that will operate, as this valve is the only object between the pressure (200PSI?) and the atmosphere. Therefor it will not cause wear on the bottle valve. However, what will damage the bottle seals, is pumping too fast. When air is compressed, it actually becomes very dense, and creates friction like a solid object would. This heats the air and metal up sometimes so high it will cause wear on the metal and valves/seals (rubber 'O' rings, and plastic seals in the valve). When you have finished pumping, you have to releive the pressure from the pump, and line. When this pressure drops bellow the bottle pressure, the bottle valve closes due to the higher pressure compared to atomospheric pressure. The benefit of a 'Scuba bottle is that you can set a slow input flow, and watch it fill without any effort. Note: Scuba bottle users! Only fill your bottles very slowly, as filling a high pressure bottle does two things. Air pressure causes heat friction, and also stretches the metal of the bottle. Filling slowly reduces the stress effects of both side effects of filling your bottle. A bottle filled to quick, will have less pressure later, when the air cools, as warm/hot air is LESS dense the cool air. To get a good volume fill, I suggest filling in two stages. Fill halfway, and leave to cool for 10 minutes. Then fill again to the correct PSI. Also try to 'top up' your guns rather then use them till dry, as this will mean less stress problems on the bottle, and quicker fill times Hope this is some use, I am a little under the influence of Draught Bitter, so I hope I have made some sense thanks,good info the best i have herd all week,,but i think it all come down to me putin **** dirty air in to me gun with my pump,i have a good filter on it i think, (its the hills pump),think its got one of the best filter around. THANKS AGAIN NORMAN Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hunter Posted October 8, 2006 Report Share Posted October 8, 2006 I've just had a moment of clarity! Buy a pump, and a bottle, then fill the bottle from the pump, then use the bottle to fill the gun! No, wait a minute... I think that should be listed in the airgun mags as 'tip of the month' see what people think lol normski32, If your pump has a filter, there shouldnt be a problem. I have filled my rifles with a non filtered RWS pump for years and theres not been a problem once. Make sure there is NO grease on the adaptors, threads, or in the buddy bottle valve. Grease explodes under pressure Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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