m3vert Posted March 8, 2013 Report Share Posted March 8, 2013 Just had Smurf explained to me via PM and have to say that it says more about any wholetime referring to their retained workmates than it does about the retained! and wulliewinky presuming you work in D&G does your brigade not pretty much exist as a retained brigade? or do you have more than 1 wholetime station now? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asa Bear Posted March 8, 2013 Author Report Share Posted March 8, 2013 Update. Just had a telephone conversation with FLO who said my employer had been in touch with him. He explained to them that it was my responsibility how my gun was secured. He also told them he was happy with the security in my van and the measures taken by me. No reason to refuse permission now other than personal prejudice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nial Posted March 8, 2013 Report Share Posted March 8, 2013 (edited) On his premises, yes. They aren't _his_ premises, they're fire brigade premises and as others stations allow bits of gun to be stored the ban is obviously _not_ FB policy. Logo I wouldn't just roll over and take this the way some are suggesting but I'm not sure I'd want to sneak bits in. Hopefully he'll see sense after the FLO contact. Nial Edited March 8, 2013 by Nial Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vipa Posted March 8, 2013 Report Share Posted March 8, 2013 Well.. just my 2 peneth but coming from a management background... Private or public sector, it is irrelevant.... He is the Station Commander so.. the highest up the food chain at your site? He is responsible for wellbeing of his team as well as health and safety. In the absence of specific company guidelines and instructions on a matter that has absolutely nothing to do with work (ok, you shoot for the firebrigade clay team... still nothing to do with work) He surely has the last say... if he doesn't want firearms on the premises for whatever reason, (and lets face it there are many,) then you really should abide by that... going over his head on such a matter just shows a complete disregard for the chain of command and undermines his authority.. If it were something to do with work and in his action or inaction was putting the safety of the team at risk etc.. then fair point.. but to do it because he doesn't want you to bring firearms into the workplace is, I'm sorry to say, just spitting your dummy out.. Whether you like it or not, guns make people nervous and he has every right to refuse you permission! It is not, as some people are trying to suggest, like bringing a set of golf clubs or a tennis raquet in! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asa Bear Posted March 8, 2013 Author Report Share Posted March 8, 2013 Vipa, whilst I appreciate your point that he is the highest in the food chain at my station, why should I just abide by his unilateral ruling? Going "over his head" is exactly what the chain of command is there for. Yes it does maybe undermine his authority but when he is using his authority to impose unfair conditions I feel it is warranted. I don't know about spitting my dummy out but I hold the record for throwing the rattle the farthest on station. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asa Bear Posted March 8, 2013 Author Report Share Posted March 8, 2013 Logo I wouldn't just roll over and take this the way some are suggesting but I'm not sure I'd want to sneak bits in. Nial I don't intend on rolling over and I will not be sneaking anything gun related on station. I will confront this injustice and get it rectified. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vipa Posted March 8, 2013 Report Share Posted March 8, 2013 Vipa, whilst I appreciate your point that he is the highest in the food chain at my station, why should I just abide by his unilateral ruling? Going "over his head" is exactly what the chain of command is there for. Yes it does maybe undermine his authority but when he is using his authority to impose unfair conditions I feel it is warranted. I don't know about spitting my dummy out but I hold the record for throwing the rattle the farthest on station. Not wanting you armed in the office is absolutely NOT imposing unfair conditions... If you worked at a school or hospital would you expect to be able to bring weapons in? would you hell.... why should you be allowed to bring weapons into any other workplace... Even If you were a copper and part of ARU... you would probably struggle to get permission to bring your own guns in.. The workplace (unless you are a gunsmith etc..) is no place for guns and no matter how you dress it up... you have absolutely no right to be armed at work... add to that your obvious flagrant disregard for authority and the obvious determination to arm yourself at work and it really is starting to feel quite sinister... Please don't throw the 'but it's an inanimate object' **** back at me or 'guns don't kill people, people kill people' rubbish.... sorry to burst your bubble but any rational human being can see that people who would otherwise not kill are more likely to kill when they have guns... The non shooting community see guns in a completely different light to you or I and are (understandibly) quite often made to feel very uncomfortable when they are around them.. if your boss is one such person then he is absolutely right to say 'no.' your FLO may have pointed out to him that there is nothing illegal about it but we aren't talking about legalities here are we! we are talking about bringing weapons into the workplace without a dmned good reason and undermining senior management's authority.. You do not have a right to bring weapons into the workplace... the only people who can give you the authority to do that are your employers and personally, I think you should just accept what your manager has asked of you and wind your neck in... if you worked for me I would refuse permission... if you did what you are doing, you would be looking for another job!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asa Bear Posted March 8, 2013 Author Report Share Posted March 8, 2013 (edited) Not wanting you armed in the office is absolutely NOT imposing unfair conditions... If you worked at a school or hospital would you expect to be able to bring weapons in? would you hell.... why should you be allowed to bring weapons into any other workplace... Even If you were a copper and part of ARU... you would probably struggle to get permission to bring your own guns in.. The workplace (unless you are a gunsmith etc..) is no place for guns and no matter how you dress it up... you have absolutely no right to be armed at work... add to that your obvious flagrant disregard for authority and the obvious determination to arm yourself at work and it really is starting to feel quite sinister... Please don't throw the 'but it's an inanimate object' **** back at me or 'guns don't kill people, people kill people' rubbish.... sorry to burst your bubble but any rational human being can see that people who would otherwise not kill are more likely to kill when they have guns... The non shooting community see guns in a completely different light to you or I and are (understandibly) quite often made to feel very uncomfortable when they are around them.. if your boss is one such person then he is absolutely right to say 'no.' your FLO may have pointed out to him that there is nothing illegal about it but we aren't talking about legalities here are we! we are talking about bringing weapons into the workplace without a dmned good reason and undermining senior management's authority.. You do not have a right to bring weapons into the workplace... the only people who can give you the authority to do that are your employers and personally, I think you should just accept what your manager has asked of you and wind your neck in... if you worked for me I would refuse permission... if you did what you are doing, you would be looking for another job!! That's the trouble with modern management. Riding roughshod over people with a total disregard for fairness or equality. Making rulings in the workplace on a whim with little or no knowledge. Accepting what a manager says as fact just because he's a manager is stupid! I have every right to challenge him. If it happens that guns are banned from ALL fire stations the decision will come from a much higher position than this particular SC. Using language like "wind your neck in" just shows your deficiencies as a manager. Your what I say goes attitude is wrong and outdated and would never work unless that is you own the company you work in. Ps. Having a broken down shotgun in two different places is totally different to being "armed". You are either having a bad day or need anger management classes. Edited March 8, 2013 by Logo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vipa Posted March 8, 2013 Report Share Posted March 8, 2013 Well... there's the rub... I do! If you think you have the right to bring weapons into the workplace you are wholly wrong... yes, there are a few on here who's bosses will allow it but I can guarantee, if you polled all of the buisinesses in the country, 99.9% would forbid it.. To be totally honest, I'm more worried about your attitude towards the station commander and your obvious dismissal of his position and his authority.. This has absolutely nothing to do with work and, whilst possibly a little ott, he would be quite withing his rights as STATION COMMANDER to insist that anything not connected with work stays off the premises.. In this case however, we are talking about weapons... and no matter how you dress it up, weapons have no place in the workplace other than in exceptional circumstances, and even then i'm not so sure! You sir, are a perfect example of why society is going to the dogs.... you are told to do something by a superior officer and, rather than abiding by his (perfectly reasonable) request you immediately go over his head and start bitching and moaning about it... would you completely disregard his requests or orders in the field if you didn't agree with him? I would suspect you probably would and then you start putting lives at risk.. I would certainly be questioning your ability to follow orders! In environments like yours, a chain of command is there for a very good reason... perhaps you should think about that before you start trying to convince everyone else that you are right and your line manager is wrong! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDAV Posted March 8, 2013 Report Share Posted March 8, 2013 Vipa are you ex army? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asa Bear Posted March 8, 2013 Author Report Share Posted March 8, 2013 Well... there's the rub... I do! If you think you have the right to bring weapons into the workplace you are wholly wrong... yes, there are a few on here who's bosses will allow it but I can guarantee, if you polled all of the buisinesses in the country, 99.9% would forbid it.. To be totally honest, I'm more worried about your attitude towards the station commander and your obvious dismissal of his position and his authority.. This has absolutely nothing to do with work and, whilst possibly a little ott, he would be quite withing his rights as STATION COMMANDER to insist that anything not connected with work stays off the premises.. In this case however, we are talking about weapons... and no matter how you dress it up, weapons have no place in the workplace other than in exceptional circumstances, and even then i'm not so sure! You sir, are a perfect example of why society is going to the dogs.... you are told to do something by a superior officer and, rather than abiding by his (perfectly reasonable) request you immediately go over his head and start bitching and moaning about it... would you completely disregard his requests or orders in the field if you didn't agree with him? I would suspect you probably would and then you start putting lives at risk.. I would certainly be questioning your ability to follow orders! In environments like yours, a chain of command is there for a very good reason... perhaps you should think about that before you start trying to convince everyone else that you are right and your line manager is wrong! I don't see how I'm an example of why society is going to the dogs but hey you own your own company you must be right. The minions should wind their necks in and do as they're told eh? A chain of command IS there for a very good reason and I have the training and experience to question something if I feel it's wrong. If a manager in "the field" gave me an order I considered dangerous yes I would question him as it'd be my life on the line not my commission for selling a mortgage. Please don't comment on matters you have absolutely no knowledge of. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vipa Posted March 8, 2013 Report Share Posted March 8, 2013 Vipa are you ex army? Ex RMP Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marine1980 Posted March 8, 2013 Report Share Posted March 8, 2013 I don't see how I'm an example of why society is going to the dogs but hey you own your own company you must be right. The minions should wind their necks in and do as they're told eh? A chain of command IS there for a very good reason and I have the training and experience to question something if I feel it's wrong. If a manager in "the field" gave me an order I considered dangerous yes I would question him as it'd be my life on the line not my commission for selling a mortgage. Please don't comment on matters you have absolutely no knowledge of. So from what you have just said, if your station manager considers it dangerous you bringing firearms wether it be part or a full weapon in to work he has the right to question it! Just like as you said you can question his judgement if you see it to be dangerous! I'd just take it on the chin mate if was you, let's face it you guys only work 4 days on before getting 4 off so organise shoots on your many days off! Royal Ex RMP Mate I take all my comments back! If Vipa is ex RMP then I can't possible stick up for him!! Lol Royal Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDAV Posted March 8, 2013 Report Share Posted March 8, 2013 Lol thought you might be.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveK Posted March 8, 2013 Report Share Posted March 8, 2013 So you're not allowed to have a sporting implement at work. Make sure he does the same for other sporting implements. Start with the volleyball (that'll not go down well). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asa Bear Posted March 8, 2013 Author Report Share Posted March 8, 2013 So you're not allowed to have a sporting implement at work. Make sure he does the same for other sporting implements. Start with the volleyball (that'll not go down well). He's already banned it along with all competitive games. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asa Bear Posted March 8, 2013 Author Report Share Posted March 8, 2013 (edited) So from what you have just said, if your station manager considers it dangerous you bringing firearms wether it be part or a full weapon in to work he has the right to question it! Just like as you said you can question his judgement if you see it to be dangerous! I'd just take it on the chin mate if was you, let's face it you guys only work 4 days on before getting 4 off so organise shoots on your many days off! Royal Mate I take all my comments back! If Vipa is ex RMP then I can't possible stick up for him!! Lol Royal I don't organise the inter services clay shoots. They're on set dates. I'll put it to all the services if they could organise theirs for one of my rota days though. Thanks for the suggestion. Edited March 8, 2013 by Logo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marine1980 Posted March 8, 2013 Report Share Posted March 8, 2013 I don't organise the inter services clay shoots. They're on set dates. I'll put it to all the services if they could organise theirs for one of my rota days though. Thanks for the suggestion. There we go problem solved, now stop dripping!! Lol Royal Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveK Posted March 8, 2013 Report Share Posted March 8, 2013 Well... there's the rub... I do! If you think you have the right to bring weapons into the workplace you are wholly wrong... yes, there are a few on here who's bosses will allow it but I can guarantee, if you polled all of the buisinesses in the country, 99.9% would forbid it.. To be totally honest, I'm more worried about your attitude towards the station commander and your obvious dismissal of his position and his authority.. This has absolutely nothing to do with work and, whilst possibly a little ott, he would be quite withing his rights as STATION COMMANDER to insist that anything not connected with work stays off the premises.. In this case however, we are talking about weapons... and no matter how you dress it up, weapons have no place in the workplace other than in exceptional circumstances, and even then i'm not so sure! You sir, are a perfect example of why society is going to the dogs.... you are told to do something by a superior officer and, rather than abiding by his (perfectly reasonable) request you immediately go over his head and start bitching and moaning about it... would you completely disregard his requests or orders in the field if you didn't agree with him? I would suspect you probably would and then you start putting lives at risk.. I would certainly be questioning your ability to follow orders! In environments like yours, a chain of command is there for a very good reason... perhaps you should think about that before you start trying to convince everyone else that you are right and your line manager is wrong! Vipa, you make the mistake of comparing a pseudo militaristic service to a military one. The fire service bears no resemblance to how it used to be. They're just highly skilled technicians in a uniform these days. Superior officer? Chain of command? Even your reference to Station Commander is out of date, they're Station Managers now. Deputy and Assistant Chiefs are directors now (cos directors get paid more). So if you want an example of something going to the dogs apply it to the whole fire service system. You suggest the OP may be putting lives at risk with his attitude> I doubt it, there are too many types of risk assessment put in place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asa Bear Posted March 8, 2013 Author Report Share Posted March 8, 2013 Vipa, you make the mistake of comparing a pseudo militaristic service to a military one. The fire service bears no resemblance to how it used to be. They're just highly skilled technicians in a uniform these days. Superior officer? Chain of command? Even your reference to Station Commander is out of date, they're Station Managers now. Deputy and Assistant Chiefs are directors now (cos directors get paid more). So if you want an example of something going to the dogs apply it to the whole fire service system. You suggest the OP may be putting lives at risk with his attitude> I doubt it, there are too many types of risk assessment put in place. Apart from the Station Manager comment. They have changed the title of managers to commanders because after an audit it was found there were more managers than actual firefighters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asa Bear Posted March 8, 2013 Author Report Share Posted March 8, 2013 There we go problem solved, now stop dripping!! Lol Royal Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WelshLamb Posted March 8, 2013 Report Share Posted March 8, 2013 When I worked on UK tramping, I used to keep a gun in the cab with me regular My boss never minded! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vipa Posted March 8, 2013 Report Share Posted March 8, 2013 So from what you have just said, if your station manager considers it dangerous you bringing firearms wether it be part or a full weapon in to work he has the right to question it! Just like as you said you can question his judgement if you see it to be dangerous! I'd just take it on the chin mate if was you, let's face it you guys only work 4 days on before getting 4 off so organise shoots on your many days off! Royal Mate I take all my comments back! If Vipa is ex RMP then I can't possible stick up for him!! Lol Royal Love you too Royal So you're not allowed to have a sporting implement at work. Make sure he does the same for other sporting implements. Start with the volleyball (that'll not go down well). You know as well as I do that a firearm is slightly more than your average sporting implement! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vipa Posted March 8, 2013 Report Share Posted March 8, 2013 Vipa, you make the mistake of comparing a pseudo militaristic service to a military one. The fire service bears no resemblance to how it used to be. They're just highly skilled technicians in a uniform these days. Superior officer? Chain of command? Even your reference to Station Commander is out of date, they're Station Managers now. Deputy and Assistant Chiefs are directors now (cos directors get paid more). So if you want an example of something going to the dogs apply it to the whole fire service system. You suggest the OP may be putting lives at risk with his attitude> I doubt it, there are too many types of risk assessment put in place. That all maybe so but the point remains that if the boss says no to something that has absolutely nothing to do with work, particularly as it relates to firearms, which, only a very small proportion of the UK population have any affinity with, then you should respect his decision and not go bleeting to you union rep for what? human rights violations!? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asa Bear Posted March 8, 2013 Author Report Share Posted March 8, 2013 That all maybe so but the point remains that if the boss says no to something that has absolutely nothing to do with work, particularly as it relates to firearms, which, only a very small proportion of the UK population have any affinity with, then you should respect his decision and not go bleeting to you union rep for what? human rights violations!? No not human rights just plain old fairness & equality. Something you obviously struggle with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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