Powders (lot to lot difference)

[longgun]

Hi,

 

I suppose American reloaders can using the same recipe in years unless any component different. So if they have the same (exact) components for a published, verified recipe then they may get the published pressure and velocity. Is it? Well, what about European powders? Vectan, Maxam.. Is this the reason for its economic price?

[Guest cookoff013]

canister powders are manufactured to tougher criteria for domestic market.

 

US published loads are different because of the way saami measure speed and pressure, different specifications.

 

euro powders are cheaper, less miles they travel.

 

cook.

[kent]

One should always re-work a rifle load up to check for unexpected pressure changes when starting a new lot. with these changes in supply more so now than ever before.

[longgun]

I didn't know this. But is this true too for European powders? Can we rely on a two or three year old recipes? Or can I use recent recipe next year?

I found a recipe for A1. cx2000, 1.10g A1, 24g shot, 332m/s @2.5m. A lot of unburned powder :( I think it neither has nor close to 332m/s. Can I trust this recipe (c&g) and Vectan?

[Guest cookoff013]

I didn't know this. But is this true too for European powders? Can we rely on a two or three year old recipes? Or can I use recent recipe next year?

 

I found a recipe for A1. cx2000, 1.10g A1, 24g shot, 332m/s @2.5m. A lot of unburned powder :( I think it neither has nor close to 332m/s. Can I trust this recipe (c&g) and Vectan?

 

 

you didnt even furnish us with any pressure data, so most likely its a lemon. good data has pressure information. what gauge is that?

 

cook.

 

thats one main point, you invested in DUFF data. i`d be real ****£d if i`d have paid for that info.

 

cook

[turbo33]

Sounds like 20g data If it is, I'm not a million miles from that and mine are stonkers

Edited August 29, 2013 by turbo33

[cooter]

Different batches can be a real problem if you are running hot loads, or running something which only requires a small powder charge.

 

Some powders also suffer from ambient temperature variation, again this is more of a problem with hot or small loads.

 

When ever possible buy a few tins from the same batch. I also mix them together for good measure.

[longgun]

 

you didnt even furnish us with any pressure data, so most likely its a lemon. good data has pressure information. what gauge is that?

 

cook.

 

thats one main point, you invested in DUFF data. i`d be real ****£d if i`d have paid for that info.

 

cook

Yes I didn't because there isn't. Meanwhile, I didn't pay for this but just learned and it exist. Nonetheless, someone must have paid And, it is a 12Ga recipe.

[longgun]

Sounds like 20g data If it is, I'm not a million miles from that and mine are stonkers

 

 

Different batches can be a real problem if you are running hot loads, or running something which only requires a small powder charge.

 

Some powders also suffer from ambient temperature variation, again this is more of a problem with hot or small loads.

 

When ever possible buy a few tins from the same batch. I also mix them together for good measure.

I agree but still need a couple verified recipes.

[turbo33]

I'm surprised it made it out of the barrel

[sitsinhedges]

That isn't a C&G recipe for 12 gauge but it is about right for 20gauge. I would double check your source and thank your lucky stars that it is underpower rather than over.

 

 

Actually having checked it is a claygame recipe for a 12 gaugesubsonic load and it is pants. A 32gram standard load uses about 24grains of A1 powder so realistically for a 24gram load you would need heaps more powder just to bring up the pressure to something useable because the lighter payload wouldn't provide enough resistance to the powder resulting in a blooper. Even using the faster AS powder that load wouldn't be much good.

Edited August 30, 2013 by sitsinhedges

[Guest cookoff013]

That isn't a C&G recipe for 12 gauge but it is about right for 20gauge. I would double check your source and thank your lucky stars that it is underpower rather than over.

 

 

Actually having checked it is a claygame recipe for a subsonic load and it is pants. A 32gram standard load uses about 24grains of A1 powder so realistically for a 24gram load you would need heaps more powder just to bring up the pressure to something useable because the lighter payload wouldn't provide enough resistance to the powder resulting in a blooper. Even using the faster AS powder that load wouldn't be much good.

 

Bingo.!

 

@OP

thats why it is always good to have quality data, that is accurate, and the actual physical properties of the load ie case / primer / powder amount, wad, shot together as a combination work.

it is always wise when reposting data, to type 12-67mm etc before the information. it stops the confusion of what load charicteristics it would have. by the looks it does apear to be a 20gauge load. however i would remind you that the pressure published for a cartridge is essential. it shows everyone how well the load is running, like a health check for a cartridge.

using data without this is stupid.

i know c&g have a whole heap of data without, some are actually ok. but others posted they are bad.

 

one of my pet hates is the 1oz subsonic published by C&G 15 grain of AS. my subsonic 32gram only got 400bar, which means its a rubbish load. but its miles neater that there.

my proof data sudgested that just alittle more powder would clean up the load, thats 1 grain extra is 18grains, that cleans up the load, and actually is still subsonic.

 

ballisticly awsome loads have alot of pressure, this is not just a coincidence, all that energy from the powder is being eaten up, and converted to gas.

 

i have a slight formula or criteria, for good loads.

in 12gauge

at the normal payload of the powder type /gauge i like a minimum of 8-9000psi, thats for everyday stuff. if the powder is pushing a heavyer weight, 7-9000psi minimum. that extra weight really does help with the way the load burns. if the load is lighter than standard, then a pressure of 10,000psi may me needed, just to clean up the load ballisticly, ie consistent speed etc.

 

as for the subgauges, the rules are slightly different as the numbers are different for the maximums.

 

good luck.

[longgun]

As I know it was a 12Ga recipe but as you read the first post, that recipe was just an example. I asked whether we may use an old recipe or can we use recent recipe next year with a new party (Vectan, Maxam..) powder.

 

Nevertheless I learned some good and interesting info. The last one from cookoff. For proper shot weight and powder min. 8-9000 psi is well but for heavier shot it is 7-9000 psi. Why?

 

1,40g AS, 32g shot, M 686, 12/70 hull, unknown wad 650 bars (NS France)
1,35g AS, 28g shot, M 688, 12/70 hull, unknown wad 680 bars (NS Italy)

 

as you see shot weights different. Also note the powder and shot charges and counterpart pressures. For the second one, shot weight and powder types are appropriate and the other, they are not appropriate. The shot charge heavier and pressure lower. Which one burn cleaner?

[Guest cookoff013]

As I know it was a 12Ga recipe but as you read the first post, that recipe was just an example. I asked whether we may use an old recipe or can we use recent recipe next year with a new party (Vectan, Maxam..) powder.

 

Nevertheless I learned some good and interesting info. The last one from cookoff. For proper shot weight and powder min. 8-9000 psi is well but for heavier shot it is 7-9000 psi. Why?

 

1,40g AS, 32g shot, M 686, 12/70 hull, unknown wad 650 bars (NS France)

1,35g AS, 28g shot, M 688, 12/70 hull, unknown wad 680 bars (NS Italy)

 

as you see shot weights different. Also note the powder and shot charges and counterpart pressures. For the second one, shot weight and powder types are appropriate and the other, they are not appropriate. The shot charge heavier and pressure lower. Which one burn cleaner?

 

when using the same powder type but with, the heavyer shot charge changes the pressure curve, makes it slightly shorter, when you send off stuff to be proofed and do a whole series of shotweights, you get a pressure trace telling you what the powder is doing.

the numbers furnished with reloading are the pressure average. the saami have the same called maximum average pressure. this is the average of the maximum pressure readings from the pressure proof analysis.

ultra fast powders, need less pressure to burn clean, but run them at 10000psi and they really do produce some exellent ballistics. (under 8fps variation). however thats just for its respective optimal payload weight.

 

steel shot uses ultra slow powders, so lots of powder giving up its energy slower. this is represented by the length of the pressure curve, i think the last steel load i did had a curve time of 5 microseconds. my superfast powder (reduced 18grain loading) is all but done in 4 microseconds.

 

those nopbelsport loads are not brilliant, as they never publish a wad. they are just the maximum pressures and speeds, with a variety of wads. so use fibre and you`ll never get the speed or pressure.

 

so, which load is cleaner, they probly are as close to being clean, the pressure 650 and 680 are near identical, as i`m sure any loading would have a variation of +/- xBAR

 

as you dont know the pressure curve from the data, you can certrainly make an educated guess. but i`d confirm this by a test load.

 

i`ll give you an example.

eg.

a cartridge- 30grains of powder, standard ammount of shot - 6000psi, 1200fps. this is a "low" pressure load, the fact it takes 30 grains just to get 6000psi which is really nothing. this pressure curve is low and probly elongated a profile like a speed bump. it wouldnt supprise me if this load is a dirty. the 30 grain charge and the low pressure inform me that the powder is slow in this application.

 

the opposite of that would be a 20 grain charge of a faster powder, standard amount of shot, 10,000 psi and 1200fps. the pressure peak is nearly double the height, probly shorter by 1/10th or so. this load would be cleaner. just by the virtue that its a faster powder, that can burn cleaner at lowere pressures thats run at higher pressures (still safe though)

 

it is best to pull together a whole bunch of data before comitting to a load. then you get a good feel as to a powder and its uses.

 

this is ballistics / physics and consistency. thats all

 

good luck,

[longgun]

Thank you cookoff, very good explanation, liked. I'll read this again.

[Guest cookoff013]

you are welcome.

there is powders such as AS24, lowsonic, winlite, extralite, and a few others that have a real fast burnrate, these are not on any burnrate chart. but they are used for under 1oz loads.

 

why are they used? because they are clean, in fact, they are efficient. it just so happens with 24 gram cartridges they use up everysingle piece of powder.