Guns through postal service

[JonathanL]

As from not that long ago (don't know the actual date) you cannot send guns (including airguns) through Royal Mail as they have a new policy regarding firearms and parts of firearms which cannot exceed 610mm (I think). Anything over this length has to go by Parcelforce or another delivery company. This has caused a lot of problems or added costs for some small firms and people doing specialist work such as barrel makers.

Nope, not true either I'm afriad. RM held a consultation into a proposed change to the postal schemes (as they legally had to) in order that they could prevent the carriage of firearms through their systems. Their plans were vociferously objected to and ultimately slapped down by the regulator.

 

Hence, it is still perfeclt lawful to send section 1 and section 2 firearms through the regular post.

 

J.

[four-wheel-drive]

Just do not do what someone did to me when I bought a second hand airpistol instead of wrapping it up and putting it in to a box he wound bubble wrap around it and that kept it nice and safe but it looked like a great big gun I had to laugh when I saw it the mind boggles what goes on in some people's heads.

[JonathanL]

How do you know the person you are posting to is an RFD? Is there a public register?

You ask for a copy of his RFD certificate. A call to your licensing department (or his) will confirm that the certificate is still valid and that he hasn't been removed from the register of dealers.

 

J.

[bostonmick]

I would like to think that we are all as sgc/fac holders responsible enough people to realise that the best way is to pass the gun onto the frd as a sale to him.do not post your certificate to someone you do not know or have ever met.i think you will find most forces will advise against you even using your cert's as a means of id in shops etc so as to cut the chances of fraud by the criminal element.the wording on the certs is out of date as with a lot of things today with the march of technology things change very fast.as far as I am concerned the safest way to transport firearms to another cert holder is by the way I described. on the subject of firearms going through royal mail no they may not be banned but it is illegal under a different law.i would ask that maybe someone who believes you can send a sect 1 or 2 through the first class system try it pop along to your post office with your shotgun neatly packed in it's case and post it to a friend in another county.then give your firearms department a call and tell them what you have done.the best way to test a law is a practical test and then be kind enough to post the results on here.

Edited December 6, 2013 by bostonmick

[CharlieT]

I would like to think that we are all as sgc/fac holders responsible enough people to realise that the best way is to pass the gun onto the frd as a sale to him.do not post your certificate to someone you do not know or have ever met.i think you will find most forces will advise against you even using your cert's as a means of id in shops etc so as to cut the chances of fraud by the criminal element.the wording on the certs is out of date as with a lot of things today with the march of technology things change very fast.as far as I am concerned the safest way to transport firearms to another cert holder is by the way I described. on the subject of firearms going through royal mail no they may not be banned but it is illegal under a different law.i would ask that maybe someone who believes you can send a sect 1 or 2 through the first class system try it pop along to your post office with your shotgun neatly packed in it's case and post it to a friend in another county.then give your firearms department a call and tell them what you have done.the best way to test a law is a practical test and then be kind enough to post the results on here.

 

No one has suggested that one can post a firearm to anyone other than RFD.

 

We as responsible certificate holders demonstrate how sensible we are by following the written instructions on our certificates rather than making the rules fit what we deem to be sensible.

 

The rules as they now stand, as Jonathan has pointed out, are actually very useful.

As an example, I wish to send my firearm to a smith who happens to be 200 miles away for a trigger job, scew cutting and for him to fit and supply a moderator. I post my rifle and FAC to him, he completes the work supplies and sells me the moderator, enters it on my fac and then posts my fac back to me and sends the rifle and moderator to my local RFD for me to collect.

 

You may think the law is an *** but actually, used correctly, it's quite sensible.

[HDAV]

And if you didnt buy a mod you could just have it sent back direct to you as it is already on your FAC/SGC..............

[bostonmick]

And if you didnt buy a mod you could just have it sent back direct to you as it is already on your FAC/SGC..............

 

 

 

Nope, not true either I'm afriad. RM held a consultation into a proposed change to the postal schemes (as they legally had to) in order that they could prevent the carriage of firearms through their systems. Their plans were vociferously objected to and ultimately slapped down by the regulator.

 

Hence, it is still perfeclt lawful to send section 1 and section 2 firearms through the regular post.

 

J.

 

 

so have I misread the last line that it is lawful to send a sect 1or 2 through the regular post..how would this work as you would never know who was in posswsion of the gun.where the gun was and it could go through at least a dozen people and do they have certs to handle and transport firearms.do they have criminal records that would make them prohibited people.a lot of temp staff are used in the post office and most non English speaking.i think this is very unlikely.but I will give you the benefit of the doubt and ask my fao as I am due a visit.also where does the face to face bit and checking the licence come in the regular post as the postie does not know what he has in the parcel.

Edited December 6, 2013 by bostonmick

[HDAV]

so have I misread the last line that it is lawful to send a sect 1or 2 through the regular post..how would this work as you would never know who was in posswsion of the gun.where the gun was and it could go through at least a dozen people and do they have certs to handle and transport firearms.do they have criminal records that would make them prohibited people.a lot of temp staff are used in the post office and most non English speaking.i think this is very unlikely.but I will give you the benefit of the doubt and ask my fao as I am due a visit.also where does the face to face bit and checking the licence come in the regular post as the postie does not know what he has in the parcel.

Royal Mail have (had, is it different now it's a plc?) an exemption from the firearms act. Yep sect 1/2and air can be sent first class (not second) there are size and weight limits tho check the Royal Mail website on conditions of carriage.

 

 

http://www.royalmail.com/business/help-and-support/tell-me-about-restricted-goods

Edited December 6, 2013 by HDAV

[bostonmick]

Royal Mail have (had, is it different now it's a plc?) an exemption from the firearms act. Yep sect 1/2and air can be sent first class (not second) there are size and weight limits tho check the Royal Mail website on conditions of carriage.

 

 

http://www.royalmail.com/business/help-and-support/tell-me-about-restricted-goods

I read the conditions and they are as clear as a bucket of mud.

[HDAV]

What isn't crystal clear about the conditions?

 

 

 

Guns for sporting use

Guns intended for sporting purposes - including Section 1 (e.g. hunting rifles) and Section 2 (e.g. shotguns) firearms, low-powered air weapons and their component parts - may be sent in compliance with UK law and subject to domestic controls on the possession of firearms. Antiques, deactivated and imitation firearms are also permitted. When sending deactivated firearms include proof of deactivation.

Items that appear to be prohibited weapons may be subject to additional checks and delays. Please seewww.royalmail.com/prohibitedgoods/business

Use 1st Class as the minimum service. The sender’s name and address must be clearly visible on the outer packaging.

Edited December 6, 2013 by HDAV

[bostonmick]

What isn't crystal clear about the conditions?

under uk law the carrier has to be a cert holder.to be in possession.if the post office does not have one then you cannot leave it with them in the first place.they may run a special service for firearms but its not postman pat in his little red van.how many people do you know who have posted guns in the ordinary post.

[HDAV]

under uk law the carrier has to be a cert holder.to be in possession

No they don't and the firearms act is very very clear about this. Look it up!

[JonathanL]

 

No one has suggested that one can post a firearm to anyone other than RFD.

 

We as responsible certificate holders demonstrate how sensible we are by following the written instructions on our certificates rather than making the rules fit what we deem to be sensible.

 

The rules as they now stand, as Jonathan has pointed out, are actually very useful.

As an example, I wish to send my firearm to a smith who happens to be 200 miles away for a trigger job, scew cutting and for him to fit and supply a moderator. I post my rifle and FAC to him, he completes the work supplies and sells me the moderator, enters it on my fac and then posts my fac back to me and sends the rifle and moderator to my local RFD for me to collect.

 

You may think the law is an *** but actually, used correctly, it's quite sensible.

In this situation he can actually send the rifle back to you directly (as it does not constitute a 'transaction' in firearm) but not the moderator as it is being transacted to you from him.

 

J.

[JonathanL]

I would like to think that we are all as sgc/fac holders responsible enough people to realise that the best way is to pass the gun onto the frd as a sale to him.do not post your certificate to someone you do not know or have ever met.i think you will find most forces will advise against you even using your cert's as a means of id in shops etc so as to cut the chances of fraud by the criminal element.the wording on the certs is out of date as with a lot of things today with the march of technology things change very fast.as far as I am concerned the safest way to transport firearms to another cert holder is by the way I described. on the subject of firearms going through royal mail no they may not be banned but it is illegal under a different law.i would ask that maybe someone who believes you can send a sect 1 or 2 through the first class system try it pop along to your post office with your shotgun neatly packed in it's case and post it to a friend in another county.then give your firearms department a call and tell them what you have done.the best way to test a law is a practical test and then be kind enough to post the results on here.

Yes we are all responsible people so can be expected to abide buy the instructions contained I our certificates. Have you read yours yet? Clearly not as they say the same as I have just said here.

 

Why would you pass a gun to an RFD as 'a sale to him' when it is clearly no such thing'? That would be a lie.

 

I have not encountered any force who advises against using a certificate as a means of identification. Indeed to do so would be ridiculous as that is precisely what it is- a form of identification!

 

Please enlighten us all as to what 'different' law makes it an offence to send a section 1 or section 2 gun through the post.

 

In fact if you feel like putting your money where your mouth is (which I'm sure you won't) then I'll take you up on it; I currently have a best quality Hellis 12ga SxS for sale on behalf of a customer. The asking price is £1,295. I'll send it as a private seller (write it onto my my FAC) through the Royal Mail to your RFD. I'll notify my local police, your local police, Special Branch, MI5 and whomever else you want, before I send it. If it gets through to your RFD then I win and you pay the full asking price to my customer who owns the gun - you can even report it again after your RFD gets it if you want just to make sure. If it gets siezed (because I've comitted an offence by posting it) then I'll cover what's owed to its owner and you get a very nice free gun. You even get to see me prosecuted for a firearms offence!

 

Sounds like a no lose situation from your side.

 

J.

[JonathanL]

under uk law the carrier has to be a cert holder.to be in possession.

No he doesn't. Read the Firearms Act! There is a specific exemption for carriers and warehousemen.

 

J.

[JonathanL]

how many people do you know who have posted guns in the ordinary post.

I am an RFD in my own right and work for another. I personally unwrapped a package of three muzzle-loading revolvers sold to us by a private customer after telling him to do just that.

 

If you think that either my self or anyone else has broken the law then please feel free to report this fact to your FEO at his visit you are currently immenetly expecting. Indeed it is your duty to do so!

 

I am easily findable and several people on here from the Durham/Northumbria area know me personally so I can hardly hide away too easily.

 

J.

[bostonmick]

Yes we are all responsible people so can be expected to abide buy the instructions contained I our certificates. Have you read yours yet? Clearly not as they say the same as I have just said here.

 

Why would you pass a gun to an RFD as 'a sale to him' when it is clearly no such thing'? That would be a lie.

 

I have not encountered any force who advises against using a certificate as a means of identification. Indeed to do so would be ridiculous as that is precisely what it is- a form of identification!

 

Please enlighten us all as to what 'different' law makes it an offence to send a section 1 or section 2 gun through the post.

 

In fact if you feel like putting your money where your mouth is (which I'm sure you won't) then I'll take you up on it; I currently have a best quality Hellis 12ga SxS for sale on behalf of a customer. The asking price is £1,295. I'll send it as a private seller (write it onto my my FAC) through the Royal Mail to your RFD. I'll notify my local police, your local police, Special Branch, MI5 and whomever else you want, before I send it. If it gets through to your RFD then I win and you pay the full asking price to my customer who owns the gun - you can even report it again after your RFD gets it if you want just to make sure. If it gets siezed (because I've comitted an offence by posting it) then I'll cover what's owed to its owner and you get a very nice free gun. You even get to see me prosecuted for a firearms offence!

 

Sounds like a no lose situation from your side.

 

J.

 

to start with then I will accept that you can send a firearm by the ordinary post but only to a rfd.although I would not use any dealer who would send weapons in this way as I feel it is very irresponsible this day and age.the law that says wharehouse staff and delivery boys are exempt from the reg's needs to be changed in our society of do gooders a person who comes out of prison for a violent crime can then get a job as a postie and have free access to guns that he would be denied a certificate for yet can have them with him under the guise of work yes the law is a joke.i would not buy a gun from any dealer that is prepared to put a lethal weapon into a system where it is treated the same as a childs toy or set of saucepans.as for your own attitude why so personal this is supposed to be a forum where differing views are aired not in a aggressive manner but whatever floats your boat.i have no use for a sxs I gave them up around thirty years ago and as I said would not be interested in any deal that involved the careless system of the ordinary mail I would never want to live with the fact that in some small way one of my actions could have contributed to someone suffering but if you want to hide behind the lax rules then so be it.i think that with the post office now being a private company they will soon be changing their policy on firearms and will not have to ask permission.thereby forcing you into having to conduct your business in a safer more controlled manner.one point I am not clear on is as you say you are selling a gun on behalf of a customer can you tell me how that is being handled as under the law you can loan a gun for up to 72 hours without entering it onto your cert after that you have to do the full process and I doubt you will sell all commission guns within that time.and how does the sale go if the rfd that hands the gun over does not make any entries onto the buyers cert does the buyer in your shop have to wait until the seller can be found and come in to do the paperwork or does he have to go away and return another day as an earlier post stated if the gun has not been sold to the dealer then it should not be entered as such as this is indeed a lie.and we would not want to bend the rules would we.the law may not always be the best and safest way if we put extra precautions in place to make it better and safer that can only be good for the future of gun ownership in this country.

[HDAV]

Bostonmick no offence but you clearly don't understand how the RFD register works it is not the same as a private FAC/SGC as an aside your not happy using an RFD who uses the postal service what service would you expect them to use?

[bostonmick]

I do not need to understand the rfd register I only need to know that I have done everything I can to protect myself and others from any of my guns causing them harm.as far as I am concerned if I hand over ownership of a firearm to a dealer then I have done as much as possible to ensure that it has gone to a safe and secure place.

[HDAV]

So how do you expect an RFD to move things around the country? How do distributors get stock to customers (dealers), guns get sent for repair, proof, adaptation? Armed escort? Helicopter gunship?

[bostonmick]

So how do you expect an RFD to move things around the country? How do distributors get stock to customers (dealers), guns get sent for repair, proof, adaptation? Armed escort? Helicopter gunship?

no the same way they shift their takings to the bank by secure transport.and your sarcasm does nothing for your image dear boy

[sumoboy]

Bostonmick no offence but you clearly don't understand how the RFD register works it is not the same as a private FAC/SGC as an aside your not happy using an RFD who uses the postal service what service would you expect them to use?

on the met police web site it states that a firearm may not be transported by another person unless they hold a fac/sgc to possess that gun.it says that a rfd may transport your gun in the course of his business at no time does it state that the postman or any other parcel company has exemption from the law there would obviously be a special delivery service for firearms but this is not mentioned on the post office site all I can find is that sporting guns may be carried subject to the laws of the country at that time.also to answer a previous it also recommends you do not use your fac/sgc as a means of id for obvious security reasons.as does lincs firearms dept ot their site.

[CharlieT]

In this situation he can actually send the rifle back to you directly (as it does not constitute a 'transaction' in firearm) but not the moderator as it is being transacted to you from him.

 

J.

Yes, I realise this and have done so many times, it's just on the occasion mentioned as an example I purchased a moderator.

[HDAV]

on the met police web site it states that a firearm may not be transported by another person unless they hold a fac/sgc to possess that gun.it says that a rfd may transport your gun in the course of his business at no time does it state that the postman or any other parcel company has exemption from the law there would obviously be a special delivery service for firearms but this is not mentioned on the post office site all I can find is that sporting guns may be carried subject to the laws of the country at that time.also to answer a previous it also recommends you do not use your fac/sgc as a means of id for obvious security reasons.as does lincs firearms dept ot their site.

Forget police websites they are not the law! Read the firearms act..... That's the law! It is also pretty clear on this point.

 

There is no "special firearms service" it's just first class post! You need to stop confusing laws with terms and conditions.

Edited December 7, 2013 by HDAV

[CharlieT]

on the met police web site it states that a firearm may not be transported by another person unless they hold a fac/sgc to possess that gun.it says that a rfd may transport your gun in the course of his business at no time does it state that the postman or any other parcel company has exemption from the law there would obviously be a special delivery service for firearms but this is not mentioned on the post office site all I can find is that sporting guns may be carried subject to the laws of the country at that time.also to answer a previous it also recommends you do not use your fac/sgc as a means of id for obvious security reasons.as does lincs firearms dept ot their site.

Royal Mail is hardly another person and is not what the Met site means.

Just because they advise people not to use their certificate for ID does not make it illegal. You will have noticed that they state one cannot own a handgun, again incorrect for as you will know many are held for dispatch purposes.