Lord Geordie Posted March 30, 2014 Report Share Posted March 30, 2014 I have to admit! Cooks explanation sat well with Me, Let me explain why! I made my first fibre loads "minus the OS card" using modern propelant it JUST threw shot and obliterated the wad into dust! The barrel was full of it. I am not sure about black powder or it's substitute as I have never had the pleasure of using it "YET" but the modern powders did shred the wads in my loads! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Underdog Posted March 30, 2014 Report Share Posted March 30, 2014 I have to admit! Cooks explanation sat well with Me, Let me explain why! I made my first fibre loads "minus the OS card" using modern propelant it JUST threw shot and obliterated the wad into dust! The barrel was full of it. I am not sure about black powder or it's substitute as I have never had the pleasure of using it "YET" but the modern powders did shred the wads in my loads! Thankyou Lord Geordie....an actual account of a fibre wad losing it's integrity. Am I correct in assuming no one was hurt or the gun damaged? Black powder aside I have loaded many nitro rounds with fibre wads only....no nitro card. But....there are fibre wads of many types! It is a valid point about a solid pack of card for a wad increasing pressure, that does not mean however that it can not be done. If anyone is worried they have a squib load do the tin can test at thirty yards! Work a load up until it passes through both sides of a bean can at thirty yards, when it does your in the ball park. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest cookoff013 Posted March 31, 2014 Report Share Posted March 31, 2014 (edited) Thankyou Lord Geordie....an actual account of a fibre wad losing it's integrity. Am I correct in assuming no one was hurt or the gun damaged? Black powder aside I have loaded many nitro rounds with fibre wads only....no nitro card. But....there are fibre wads of many types! It is a valid point about a solid pack of card for a wad increasing pressure, that does not mean however that it can not be done. If anyone is worried they have a squib load do the tin can test at thirty yards! Work a load up until it passes through both sides of a bean can at thirty yards, when it does your in the ball park. yes there are many fibre wads available, cork is a fibre wad and compresses differently. there are different wads that have different densitys. ie some fibre wads have more fibre / wad. sure card wads can be used, i`ve seen very little data on it, i can recollect a red-dot load that was 1,1/8oz or so. the data was from bpi. working up a load should not be done with a shotgun. i`ve had multiple loads fail, that were high pressure even using less powder than a plaswad counterpart. the speeds in plastic were faster, the speeds with fibre were slower and excessive pressure. i`ve also had one load come back that exceeds HP criteria. all loads were tested. i thinkl the worry is excessive pressure to get a load to expected fps, when the fps on the side of a box of factory shells are not as advertised. shotshells are developed by 2 ways, checking the chamber pressure, and the speed, shotsize is "dealers choice" my subsonic load is 32g #4 and will "pass" the bean - tin test at 30yards. my 1450fps #9 load will not. one is 950fps at 2.5m the other 1350fps at 2.5m the science of shells is not to have something "just to leave the barrel" it is to have a clean and efficient shell, great pressure low fps variation, and something thats quite good. often could or could not be "economical" modern nitro powder should not be second guessed, i`ve had multiple, multiple loads fail at proof. some theoretically should have passed, some theoretically failed (i try to work out powder-to the max pressure) please use reloading data / information responsably Edited March 31, 2014 by cookoff013 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Underdog Posted March 31, 2014 Report Share Posted March 31, 2014 yes there are many fibre wads available, cork is a fibre wad and compresses differently. there are different wads that have different densitys. ie some fibre wads have more fibre / wad. sure card wads can be used, i`ve seen very little data on it, i can recollect a red-dot load that was 1,1/8oz or so. the data was from bpi. working up a load should not be done with a shotgun. i`ve had multiple loads fail, that were high pressure even using less powder than a plaswad counterpart. the speeds in plastic were faster, the speeds with fibre were slower and excessive pressure. i`ve also had one load come back that exceeds HP criteria. all loads were tested. i thinkl the worry is excessive pressure to get a load to expected fps, when the fps on the side of a box of factory shells are not as advertised. shotshells are developed by 2 ways, checking the chamber pressure, and the speed, shotsize is "dealers choice" my subsonic load is 32g #4 and will "pass" the bean - tin test at 30yards. my 1450fps #9 load will not. one is 950fps at 2.5m the other 1350fps at 2.5m the science of shells is not to have something "just to leave the barrel" it is to have a clean and efficient shell, great pressure low fps variation, and something thats quite good. often could or could not be "economical" modern nitro powder should not be second guessed, i`ve had multiple, multiple loads fail at proof. some theoretically should have passed, some theoretically failed (i try to work out powder-to the max pressure) please use reloading data / information responsably absolutly.All that however has nothing to do with your statement that the wad will be burnt away by 10000psi and that the lead wont be driven! All my reloading includes data and cross referencing data. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest cookoff013 Posted March 31, 2014 Report Share Posted March 31, 2014 the wad will be burned away with even less pressure. 10000psi is just something off the top of my head whereas, it is actually just below maximum service pressure at 92.85% the ptmax being 740bar for 12gauge 12-70mm the powder will burn up the wad, it is bad if the powder is still burning as its going out the barrel, that means the original pressure wasnt enought to burn clean. the powder should be burned in the chamber, as thats what its designed for. most powders burn very well at 10,000psi. some faster powders like extralite, winlite, lowsonic, as24, burn incredably clean even at lower pressure (7000psi). this i think is due to the high nitro content and or its application. but i assume its due to higher nitro content, because the notoriously inaccurate burn charts have the powder i`m using (ba10) in the top 5. so its a high density pistol powder. i also notice the faster powders even at reduced charges get the pressure peak under one microseconds earlier than the standard powders. the slow powders i have tested extends the pressure peak in time (hence the term slower burning powder) i dont understand why you are concerned with my statement, i think it is not wrong, wads do two things, keep the powder burning to gas, and driving the lead down the barrel. if the wad is damaged, to any extent, it must surely fail in on the latter task of driving the lead. something might come out the barrel, but it wouldnt be any decent speed or consistently. if you have any more concerns about this, you can analyses your own ammunition by sending it to a proofing body. i send mine to birmingham. you could load up some, costs £40 for 10 shells. i wouldnt bother loading any such thing as that, i`ve got better loads to waste my money on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Underdog Posted March 31, 2014 Report Share Posted March 31, 2014 Absolutly...look...you are implying the pressure alone causes the wad to burn. What I wish to point out is there is not enough time for a wad to burn....fail maybe but not burn. Whilst nitro can and does generate more pressure than black powder per an equal volume black powder generates/ conveys much more heat. So much so the use of plastic is all but a waste of time as melted plastic gets everywhere. Even plastic hulls can get melted holes in them. Now, a fibre wad on the other hand does burn. I do think your use of the term burn is wrong. Break up maybe a more accurate term. U. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest cookoff013 Posted March 31, 2014 Report Share Posted March 31, 2014 i`m saying pressure will cause the fibre wads to fail, pressure is the measure of gas. propellants burn to produce gas. whether the initial burning of the powder, or the resulting gas from the propellant it doesnt matter, the wad is virtually destroyed, the result of which, is recorded as low speeds / a mess. black powder does burn at low pressures but the subsequent pressure peak it generates is about 5-6000psi and extremely long. longer than anything i`ve ever handled. -no, "pressure" on its own will not burn the wad, this is demonstrated every time a fibre wad is fired with a powdercard. shall i simplify the statement? - burning powder will disfigure fibre wads if a powder card is not used. whether that be from the heat generated from a load or the escaping gasses from the powder that is burning, the wad is not doing what it is supposed to do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Underdog Posted March 31, 2014 Report Share Posted March 31, 2014 That clears that up then...thought it didna burn :-) Now then....you say the chamber is where the or all the powder should be burned and thats what it is designed to do....are you saying that no burning should take place out side the chamber? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest cookoff013 Posted March 31, 2014 Report Share Posted March 31, 2014 That clears that up then...thought it didna burn :-) Now then....you say the chamber is where the or all the powder should be burned and thats what it is designed to do....are you saying that no burning should take place out side the chamber? that is exactly what i`m saying. when smouldering powder is seen ejecting out the muzzel, it is unburned powder and it is still smouldering, because the shell is either low pressure or the pressure isnt enough to cleanly burn the powder below the maximum ptmax (pressure threashold max) these slow burning powder really need some pressure to get them going good. (when i mean good, to convert all the powder to gas, and get decent speed.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Underdog Posted March 31, 2014 Report Share Posted March 31, 2014 that is exactly what i`m saying. when smouldering powder is seen ejecting out the muzzel, it is unburned powder and it is still smouldering, because the shell is either low pressure or the pressure isnt enough to cleanly burn the powder below the maximum ptmax (pressure threashold max) these slow burning powder really need some pressure to get them going good. (when i mean good, to convert all the powder to gas, and get decent speed.) So do you believe that max velocity is achieved in the chamber then? Are you implying that no combustion is taking place (or shouldn't be) in the barrel? That the heat we feel on the outside of a barrel is nothing to do with an ongoing burn/combustion? That the fuel that is referred to as a progressive propellants is not progressively propelling but simply exploding in the chamber and the inertia exerted on the wad and shot shoots it out? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest cookoff013 Posted March 31, 2014 Report Share Posted March 31, 2014 yes, because all the propellent needs to be converted to gas to produce an efficient load. if you want fast you`d just load up some powder like hodgdon longshot, 30 odd grains of powder slow burning (still in the chamber i might add). consistent velocity is produced by having a clean efficient cartridge, to convert all that powder into gas. powder is not burning down the barrel. powder should not be burning in the barrel, but in cases i have previously mentioned, ie low pressure pooky loads, will still be smouldering, not burning or converting that gasses into something usefull. the hot barrels are caused by the gun shooting hot gasses, not by powder burning in the "barrels" the pressure peak is all done at a few micro seconds, for fast burning powder its done 0.5 microseconds earlyer than normal / traditional powders. for these progressive ie slow burning powders the peak is about 0.5 microseconds later than the traditional loads. i`m comparing a really fast powder to vectan A0. i have pretty graphs. i think you have completely missed the point of powder, it doesnot explode. but is burned very quickly in the chamber. the small delay in peak pressure is all it takes. do you have information that the powder is continually burning down the barrel? because the 1" (25/30mm) pressure barrel says its done, no more energy is being added. the progressive powders produce gas just like fast powders. it just gives it up slightly slower. if the progressive powders are not given enough chamber pressure to burn they just produce pooky loads, really low fps, no consistency, badness. unburned powder everywhere one example i can give you is hodgdons longshot and 32g loads, it needs more than 10000psi to get that load working well, in excess of 1500fps, sammi specs of 11,500psi gets really fasty loads. fast loads need huge volumes of gas / powders such as powder charges of 30+ odd grains. now, longshot should really be run with 36gram loads. more powder is added to keep the chamber pressure high enough, more powder so more pressure and ultimately more speed. why do you think as we go down the gauges the chamber peak pressures increase? and the fact the cip has a 2 tier proof system inclusive of the HP criteria with a ptmax 1050bar ans statistical outlier of 1200bar. 12gauge is 740 20gauge 800 bar i forgot the rest. pressure is your friend,. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Underdog Posted March 31, 2014 Report Share Posted March 31, 2014 Ahhhr now I see where you are coming from. You are not implying combustion ONLY takes place in the chamber, it is converted to gas form in the chamber and the gas then continues to burn in the barrel. Powder, does need some resistance during ignition to aid complete saturation of fire to each piece in order to get an efficient burn yes. However, some powders are more messy than others and some particles of un-burnt matter are left behind. Aliant's Green dot is prone to this but Hogdens Clays is very clean burning. A2400 in .410 tends to leave un-burnt kernals but H110 does not. Anyway, all sorted now, a wad is not burnt up by 10000psi and the lead is driven. A fibre wad alone can lose it's integrity but that depends on type etc when missing a nitro card. Powder whether powder or converted to gas form has to be fully ignited in the chamber and ideally under static compression. Phew. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest cookoff013 Posted March 31, 2014 Report Share Posted March 31, 2014 Combustion only takes place in the chamber. Combustion of powder produces hot gas. No, powder needs pressure to burn all the powder. 10000psi average peak pressure is needed for most powders. Some burn well at 7000psi. Others at 12000psi. Slower the powder usually means more pressure is needed. Get greendot under 36grams of lead and 11500psi or 1050bar and it'll be clean as a whistle. Wads will get destroyed by either burning powder, or escaping hot gases. Its gone. Powder is gas in powder form. We have gone off topic, it is not doing this thread nothing. Start a new thread if you like. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnphilip Posted March 31, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 31, 2014 I started the thread, i got some fiber wads so all sorted, have make some loads up with 20 mm fiber wad and 5 mm over powder wad. Start a new thread its fine by me. This is all very interesting and sure there are things to be learnt from what you are debating Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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