The future for lead ammunition (or not) minutes from 2009

[Kes]

I came across these minutes when researching the current position on lead in ammo.

I had argued in another thread that evidence for lead poisoning from inland ponds, over which duck had been shot for years appeared to be absent and that perhaps this called into question other research. It appears the Americans are now questioning after a ban was implemented over there. Make of this what you will, its just part of my digging but of interest.

Item 6a on the main minutes is quite interesting.

 

 

.RESEARCH ADVISORY COMMITTEE

Minutes of Meeting held at Rossett Hall

18^th November 2009

 

 

 

Action points/recommendations from meeting

Minute Ref

Page No.

Date to be completed by

Person responsible

Date completed

1

JPH to write to Andy Macfarlane

thanking him on behalf of the

Committee for his Chairmanship

 

1

2

2

TC/JPH to liaise with TR

4

3

3

MA to recommend to Council in January that bans on lead ammunition are anticipated sooner rather than later and that members should be prepared for early change

6a

4

4

JPH to arrange a meeting for this new group in the new year

8b

6

5

AH to pass a copy of the last Annual Review to MA

 

9a

6

6

MA to write a foreword for the new Annual Review

9a

6

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

RESEARCH ADVISORY COMMITTEE

18^th November 2009

Rossett Hall

 

Present Michael Alldis (MA) - Chairman

Dr Tom Cameron (TC)

Dr Matt Ellis (ME)

Philip Guard (PG)

Dr John Harradine (JH)

Amanda Holroyd (AH) (Sec)

Dr Alison Loram (AL)

Dr Peter Marshall (PM)

Chris McVerry (CM)

Tom Wylie (TW)

 

1. Introductions and welcome

 

Michael Alldis welcomed all present. He also noted and thanked, on behalf of the Committee, Andy Macfarlane for his chairmanship of the RAC.

 

AP1 – JPH to write to Andy Macfarlane thanking him on behalf of the Committee for his Chairmanship

 

 

2. Apologies for absence

 

Apologies were received from Derek Allsop, Nicky Reynolds, Colin Shedden, Mike Leggett, Tim Russell, Simon Hamlyn and Lee Freeston.

 

 

3. Confirmation of minutes of meeting on 12 November 2008

 

Minutes of the previous meeting were accepted.

 

 

3a Matters arising

 

JPH informed the Committee that the shoot monitoring programme to assess wounding loss in game shooting (part of the Respect for Quarry programme) has restarted this season.

 

 

4. Humber estuary wildfowling issues

 

JPH updated the Committee on recent developments with regard to a proposed study of wildfowling on the estuary and disturbance of waterfowl populations, the need for which has arisen out of the recent consents review process with NE. A new opportunity has arisen, which is being actively pursued, to undertake a study of disturbance caused by a variety of recreational activities including wildfowling.

 

TC noted that NE appears to be applying its rules to other recreational activities not just wildfowling. The problem continues, however, of lack of data to inform the process adequately so as to avoid unnecessary restrictions on wildfowling.

 

JPH welcomed the disturbance studies getting underway at Leeds University through TC and encouraged their integration with other studies on the Humber related to wildfowling. This to be discussed with Tim Russell who is managing the wildfowling issues on the estuary.

 

The Committee endorsed the efforts being made to conduct appropriate disturbance studies on the estuary.

 

AP2 – TC/JPH to liaise with TR

 

 

5. Raptor issues

 

The paper from TR updating issues surrounding raptors was noted.

 

 

6. Lead ammunition issues

 

6a Lead update

 

JPH gave a presentation ‘Lead in Ammunition Update’ which was followed by discussion of a number of aspects.

 

It was noted that costs of ammunition, particularly among clay shooters, would likely be a driver of the market for non-lead cartridges.

 

TW noted a potential conflict between Respect for Quarry and the reduced use of lead shot, namely that the RfQ encourages shooting at closer ranges with more pellets to reduce wounding loss, but the likely outcome being that shot game contains more lead and thereby reduced edibility. (TW please review).

 

MA urged caution with regard to political implications of changing from lead ammunition, including effects on the membership, and urged BASC to proceed with care.

 

PG felt that a three-stage process would be appropriate, namely a ban on the manufacture of lead ammunition, followed by bans on sale and eventually, use. Compliance and enforcement, however, were also considered important factors in the success of any such process.

 

PG urged Council to put a timescale on lead substitution. It was generally felt that more information needed to be given to members through the magazine on issues relating to lead ammunition, including contamination of game.

 

It was agreed that the following recommendation be given to Council:

 

“In light of the growing evidence of problems with lead ammunition the Committee believes that the use of lead ammunition in shooting and stalking is becoming increasingly unsustainable. As a result of the growing and external pace of change the Committee recommends that Council prepares members and other shooters for early change away from lead ammunition. The Committee also recommends that the Deer Committee gives urgent attention to the problems of lead bullets“.

 

AP3 – MA to recommend to Council in January that bans on lead ammunition are

anticipated sooner rather than later and that members should be prepared for

early change

 

 

6b Game meat survey

 

AH presented the results from the recent game meat survey drawn from a sample of members in the NW of England/NE Wales. It showed that a substantial proportion of members is eating game meat on a frequent and regular basis.

 

 

6c Defra/WWT survey

 

AL updated the Committee on the ongoing Defra/WWT study of compliance with the lead shot regulations in England. The BASC members’ survey had recently been successfully completed (although not yet written up) and showed an unexpectedly good response rate (33%). Currently preparations are underway for the landowners/shoot providers’ survey being conducted through the CLA membership.

 

 

7. New/proposed research

 

7a Gun noise study

 

ME gave an overview of the study which is now expected to take place in early 2010. Preliminary work has now been completed measuring noise levels produced by a range of different cartridge types.

 

The study arose out of issues relating to statutory reductions in shooting activity following outbreaks of AI, but they have the potential for wider application to addressing shooting noise issues in the countryside at large.

 

The Committee welcomed the financial contribution and support from CPSA.

 

Both MA and CM offered help in providing personnel for the fieldwork phase of the work.

The Committee endorsed the study.

 

7b Airgun ballistics

 

ME gave an overview of the proposed airgun ballistics studies. These are to develop understanding of performance and give guidance to members with respect to the use of airguns for live shooting, according to Respect for Quarry principles. They are also to support the developing interest in representing airgun shooting through the Marketing and other departments.

7c Lead and lead substitute ballistics

 

Patterning

 

ME reported that the department had recommenced patterning work of shotgun cartridges following the relocation of the pattern plate from Doveridge Clay Shooting Club to the West Midlands Shooting Ground. This move has facilitated easier and more open access to the pattern plate and so enabled the work to develop particularly with respect to the potential performance of non-lead shotgun cartridges. Work has already begun measuring the performance of game loads used for extreme pheasant shooting, an area of some contention that is being openly promoted in the shooting magazines.

 

Copper bullets

 

ME outlined plans for web-based survey amongst members interested in deer stalking to gauge acceptance of and attitudes to copper bullets in order help focus future research in this area.

 

Small-bore rifles

 

ME outlined a potential project, in collaboration with the Firearms department, into the penetration and fragmentation of lead and non-lead small-bore ammunition. This is likely to lead to focus on centre-fire ammunition in due course.

 

7d Gamekeeping survey

 

AL updated the Committee on the gamekeeping survey, designed to update the first survey over ten years ago. This is now expected to be launched early in 2010.

 

7e Waterfowl Shooting Survey II

 

JPH reported that the second and third phase of the Waterfowl Shooting Survey, having been delayed by staff and other changes, are to be reviewed in the near future with Wildfowling and other teams, to determine the need for and form of these surveys.

 

7f Membership satisfaction update

 

JPH indicated that the Marketing department was seeking a simple update in 2010 of the membership satisfaction survey conducted two years previously. Web-based methods of surveying could be explored alongside traditional mailed survey forms.

 

 

7g PAH/clay study

 

JPH raised the possibility of an investigation into the potential contamination of soil/water by the breakdown of clay targets containing polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons (PAH), given that a leading clay manufacture had offered to support such a study. In view of the likelihood that the REACH regulations will soon require the phasing out of clays containing PAHs it was agreed that such work would not be cost-effective.

8. Other topics

 

8a Marksman ST2 simulator

 

JPH reported on recent meetings over the shooting simulator and his continuing desire to work with Tommy Andersson (its developer) to improve the software used and presentation of results to align the system more closely with Respect for Quarry principles.

 

There was some discussion of the possibility of an online version being developed out of the ST2 system to educate shooters in terms of some of the key factors affecting shooting success.

 

8b BASC ballistics group

 

JPH indicated a plan to establish a BASC ballistics group, comprising a number of known enthusiastic ballisticians amongst the membership. Its aim would be to harness the knowledge and expertise of such people particularly to support the Respect for Quarry programme. It is hoped to call a meeting of such people in the new building early in 2010.

 

The Committee supported the proposal for establishing a BASC ballistics group.

 

AP4 – JPH to arrange a meeting for this new group in the new year

 

 

9. Any other matters

 

9a. Research Annual Review

 

AH reported that the department is working on its annual review again, with a publication expected in March 2010.

 

AP5 – AH to pass a copy of the last Annual Review to MA

AP6 – MA to write a foreword for the new Annual Review

 

9b. DNA project

 

The Committee fully supported Colin Shedden’ request, on behalf of Strathclyde University, for financial support (£1000) for the project to develop the use of DNA sampling as a tool for detecting and controlling wildlife crime.

 

 

10. Date of next meeting

 

The next meeting was proposed for 17^th November 2010.

 

 

Amanda Holroyd

3^rd December 2008

RES/0811min

Edited May 18, 2014 by Kes

[Scully]

I believe these are the infamous 'minutes' Kes, which sparked one of the longest threads there is on PW. If you do a search you'll find it; it's entertaining reading.

[Kes]

I believe these are the infamous 'minutes' Kes, which sparked one of the longest threads there is on PW. If you do a search you'll find it; it's entertaining reading.

Thanks Scully. Infamous is right - I'll check it out - save people responding to this and see if they, like me think this is not exactly a sell-out by BASC, more a 'walk away quietly and forget lead'.

I presume others have seen the contrast between this set of minutes and even BASC's current position.

Regards,

Edited May 18, 2014 by Kes

[Kes]

Scully, there are a few which fall into the category of lead shot ! One very unpleasant one where AL4X gets an undeserved (IMHO) drubbing from DavidBASC.

 

My research has led me to conclude that there are anomalies in the data about lead poisoning which have not been followed up, a calm acceptance that lead should (note the 'should' - not 'would') be eventually banned as it is 'becoming increasingly unsustainable", and a lot of diversionary (but obviously of itself reasonable) emphasis latterly placed on compliance on samples and stats provided by WWT.

Interesting they only tested birds with shot IN them. That amounted to only 28% of the bought teal sample in Winter1 when traceability seems to have been a valid concern.

 

The more I look the less I like the way BASC has handled it, but I dont want to be labelled a BASC basher, as my mind was already made up (on the Greylag issue ) not to renew and probably go for SACS or CA.

Edited May 18, 2014 by Kes

[al4x]

Kes allegedly this was just presented to the committee not acted on but you have to make your own mind up on it. It is a long time ago and they did realise it wasn't what the membership wanted. I'm sceptical especially now they have no employee on the LAG that could be a clever ploy to distance themselves from the findings and hope not to upset their revenue stream or it could just be the way things go with staff retirement.

[BlaserF3]

I've just read the line in 6a "It was noted that costs of ammunition, particulary among clay shooters, would likely be a driver of the market for non-lead cartridges."

 

What an absolute load of rubbish, serious clay shooters are prepared to pay for a quality product.

[ColinF]

The more I look the less I like the way BASC has handled it, but I dont want to be labelled a BASC basher, as my mind was already made up (on the Greylag issue ) not to renew and probably go for SACS or CA.

The CA's position on greylag is the same as BASC's...... Not sure what SACS view is

[Kes]

It is Colin but at least they have highlighted the moving of Greys to GL as unusual as moving jackdaws and jays to SL's.

I am also unaware of the SACS position on this and will check.

[Kes]

Kes allegedly this was just presented to the committee not acted on but you have to make your own mind up on it. It is a long time ago and they did realise it wasn't what the membership wanted. I'm sceptical especially now they have no employee on the LAG that could be a clever ploy to distance themselves from the findings and hope not to upset their revenue stream or it could just be the way things go with staff retirement.

There's an interesting line in the minutes stating the consequences for membership of 'being seen to accept lead will be banned' but conspiracy theory though it might be, best to argue strongly for compliance as there is an implicit scapegoat if it all goes pear -shaped. I dont want to think these things but who would accept the minutes of their own advisory committee and bin it. Between the one position and the other, someone has concocted a plan but it doesnt change the fact that BASC officers have recommended the members are told quickly that lead will be banned. I suggest a peewit could do it better.

[gunsmoke]

AP3 – MA to recommend to Council in January that bans on lead ammunition are

anticipated sooner rather than later and that members should be prepared for

early change

The above was not voted on at the BASC council meeting, Dr Harradine just gave a verbal report to council. All it said in the council minutes is "the minutes for the research committee are noted."

I've been all through this before but nice to see, it's not just me. Add to this the WWT working with BASC on the steering group and compliance report for defra and the work on the LAG.

Has anyone pointed out that its the same people from the BASC and WWT at all the meetings eg Harradine, Swift, Plain and Cromie. When you look through the papers that the LAG are looking at, Cromie, Plain and Harradine are list in a large number of them.

So you have the same people writing the reports, review the evidence, getting paid by Defra to do the compliance report and their all on the LAG.

All I get from the trolls on here is that I'm a conspiracy theorist, a BASC basher. I do not believe that it can be called a theory anymore and it is only on the lead issue that I question BASC's management.

BASC are in a very difficult position, they have been playing on both sides and they are going to have to chose who's side they are really on. the greenies or us shooter's.

Edited May 19, 2014 by gunsmoke