fileofax Posted July 21, 2014 Report Share Posted July 21, 2014 hello i am still waiting till i can get my antique black powder 410 single shot shotgun i have already purchased all the bits i need except for the large rifle or pistol magnum primers which i can't find here in london does anyone have any loading information for this 410 i will be using triple 7 powder and i don't know if anyone knows but the shells are larger inside diameter that the plastic ones so everything i can get i for the plastic casing wads and all to small so if i load i will loose pressure any idea where to buy shot cups for these magtech shells ? thank you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Underdog Posted July 21, 2014 Report Share Posted July 21, 2014 Matey, consider just cards cut with a leather type punch. Loads of sizes on ebay! 11 or 11.5mm won't be far off...... .400"= 100mm aprox. You are correct to get over size for the brass cases. Around equal volumes of shot and powder won't leave you with much room any way!. A stack of stamped beer mats will do. Kind of like loading a muzzleloader. I loaded some with Pyrodex years ago this way! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deershooter Posted July 21, 2014 Report Share Posted July 21, 2014 .400"= 100mm aprox. Not when I went to school tooooooooo many 0 .400 = 10.16 mm not 100 mm Deershooter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deershooter Posted July 21, 2014 Report Share Posted July 21, 2014 Ditch the brass cases use plastic much more in the component market, ballistics will be **** and patterns nothing like modern equivalents with the brass cases Deershooter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Underdog Posted July 21, 2014 Report Share Posted July 21, 2014 .400"= 100mm aprox. Not when I went to school tooooooooo many 0 .400 = 10.16 mm not 100 mm Deershooter typing error...you are sooooooooo kind! Ditch the brass cases use plastic much more in the component market, ballistics will be **** and patterns nothing like modern equivalents with the brass cases Deershooter Not my experience! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deershooter Posted July 21, 2014 Report Share Posted July 21, 2014 typing error...you are sooooooooo kind! Not my experience! If this was the case the loading companies would offer these cartridges 1000 of people are using 2.5 inch chambered black powder proof .410's with 2.5 inch nitro shells not saying this is the correct thing to do It's a proven fact that modern plastic wads out perform cut up beer mats or George Digweed would be using them Just because it goes bang don't men it's right. You load your brass shells I will use WW 14 gram shell let's have a round of skeet ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old farrier Posted July 21, 2014 Report Share Posted July 21, 2014 Hi Filofax Sounds like a lovely old gun any pictures and of the cases Lot of pleasure shooting a antique load in a antique gun Sorry I can't be of any help with your loads All the best Of Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fileofax Posted July 21, 2014 Author Report Share Posted July 21, 2014 hello all thanks for the advice so far and i am hoping that someone can still give me some loading figures i do know that modern plastic shells are better thats the point using brass reloading is FUN i think anyway as soon as i have restored the gun i will be posting pics of the restoration of the 2 i have one a 2.5" and the other a 2" CIRCA very old :( and may need to be sleeved i am still deciding weather to use them for shot or slug shooting if the club i am with will let me full of old guys and girls running the place Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deershooter Posted July 21, 2014 Report Share Posted July 21, 2014 If a .410 needs sleeving it's a wall hanger it will out weigh it's worth no one carries .410 tubes off the shelf you would need to have one made at a cost of approx £450 then fitting and proofing it's going to be £600 Might have to get the popcorn out with this one Deershooter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fileofax Posted July 21, 2014 Author Report Share Posted July 21, 2014 hello deershooter that may be so but if your like me and like to play and have the ability the tooling and friends in the know all it will cost me is the carbon steel to make the insert i might just do it to tell you how much it costs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Underdog Posted July 22, 2014 Report Share Posted July 22, 2014 Some folk just dont understand but nevermind. Their hearts are so strapped down they cry if they loose a ****! 1/2oz of shot and the same in volume for BP or pyrodex but can not remember if trip7 has to be reduced from an equal volume way of measuring! It says on the bottle... The brass cases are full length so no closure amount needed. You may get a little more shot in. I use clear nail varnish to hold the over shot card in. With a slug being light more powder could be used. If you want to buy wads try finding soft felt ones. All wads obturate some but the felt are best for that. My 12g cases need 11g components but have been ok with 12g fibre wads as long as two 11g thin cards are eather side of the wad. Punched from a home made punch around .750". This may work in the .410! U. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deershooter Posted July 22, 2014 Report Share Posted July 22, 2014 hello deershooter that may be so but if your like me and like to play and have the ability the tooling and friends in the know all it will cost me is the carbon steel to make the insert i might just do it to tell you how much it costs I have never seen someone shoot slug out a .410 on a professional shooting range out of a single barrel old .410 ,with your other post about smooth bore rifle it appears that you probably are trying to run before you can walk . If you had a FAC there would be no problem obtaining primers this also would have to have slug conditioned on it the amount to buy and hold.you will also have problems with a condition of target shooting as there is no recognised competition for .410 slug.just because it's smooth bore doesn't mean it can be held on a shotgun certificate if you want to shoot single ball or slug it needs to be on Fac. Please prove me wrong by showing us the ammo section / guns authorised of your FAC Munch chomp Deershooter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fileofax Posted July 22, 2014 Author Report Share Posted July 22, 2014 (edited) Underdog thank you that makes more sense i will load some and let you know how i get on that is if they let me shoot it as its a shotgun to bolster my request to shoot it i will have to load the slugs and ball and chrono the loads do some maths and give them the info deershooter i do have a licence and just no one here in north west london has any large pistol primers or large rifle primers everything else except 209 primers for the shotgun good luck finding those anywhere close by as for why am i shooting 410 ITS FUN small easy to hold light cheep to reload and why not no one else is doing it and yes i know that it has to go on he shotgun licence Edited July 22, 2014 by fileofax Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deershooter Posted July 22, 2014 Report Share Posted July 22, 2014 Underdog thank you that makes more sense i will load some and let you know how i get on that is if they let me shoot it as its a shotgun to bolster my request to shoot it i will have to load the slugs and ball and chrono the loads do some maths and give them the info deershooter i do have a licence and just no one here in north west london has any large pistol primers or large rifle primers everything else except 209 primers for the shotgun good luck finding those anywhere close by as for why am i shooting 410 ITS FUN small easy to hold light cheep to reload and why not no one else is doing it and yes i know that it has to go on he shotgun licence Mag tech case's don't use 209 primers large rifle and pistol are not 209 shot shell primers are totally different I still say you do not have a FIREARMS LICENCE you may have a SHOTGUN LICENCE You can not buy pistol or rifle primers without a FAC I COULD FIND LARGE RIFLE PRIMERS IN NEARLY ANY GUN SHOP THAT SELLS RELOADING COMPONENTS munch chomp Deershooter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deershooter Posted July 22, 2014 Report Share Posted July 22, 2014 http://gunshop-eb.com Read the guidance to the police regarding ammunition you cannot load slug and ball without having that condition on a FIREARMS LICENCE not a shotgun licence I wonder what your local Feo would say if you are only in the application stage for a FAC Munch chomp Deershooter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Underdog Posted July 22, 2014 Report Share Posted July 22, 2014 Some folk on here think they are the law enforcers and like to assume the worst for everyone and riddicule their freedom of choice if it falls outside their recommended ideals. Communists basicaly! Some even dont know when to stop digging. Good luck and have fun with that 410. U. Zzzzzz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fileofax Posted July 22, 2014 Author Report Share Posted July 22, 2014 my local FEO said i can use a musket on my shotgun licence also did you know that because its an antique it can be removed from the licence to make it an antique again (section 8 of the FEO guide lines) as for the primers again everything was disclosed in the interview all my intentions what i am shooting and why i would not have got my licence and he would have advised me if i could not do something especially reloading and because its a shotgun i am reloading its not a problem weather its rifle primers as i am sure you know smooth bore muskets can be used on the shotgun licence and those funny enough use balls to shoot i have spent many hours doing research pestering the FEO for information and he has helped and advised me every step so i don't fall fowl of the laws and restrictions i don't know if your FEO does not know or just don't care to help you with what you want to do but mine did if you want the link to there guide pdf i will give it to you no problem here it is https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/329845/GuideFirearmsLicensingLawJune14.pdf this is the revised guide notes with the newly added calibers on the section 1 list just for your info lol Underdog Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deershooter Posted July 22, 2014 Report Share Posted July 22, 2014 Muskets load ball without the use of cartridges as soon as you load a cartridge you need a firearms licence because it has a single projectile it is no longer a shotshell it's Controlled by the firearms licensing just because your gun is old it's not covered by section 58 of the firearms act as AMMUNITION IS READILY AVAILABLE IE .410 Deershooter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted July 22, 2014 Report Share Posted July 22, 2014 The law is quite clear about single projectile loads no matter if they are fired from a shotgun speak to your shooting org. as the advice on forums is a very poor defence. BASC firearms must dish this shotgun / firearm advice out 5 times a day, it just trips of their tongue Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deershooter Posted July 22, 2014 Report Share Posted July 22, 2014 (edited) Old firearms which should not benefit from the exemption as antiques 8.12. Old firearms which should not benefit from the exemption as antiques are set out below. This list is not exhaustive and there may be other types and calibres of firearms that should be considered modern rather than antique: (a) Shotguns and smooth-bored guns, including shot pistols, chambered for standard shotgun cartridges, .22 inch, .23 inch, 6mm and 9mm rimfire cartridges unless otherwise specified in the list of obsolete shotgun chamberings in Appendix 5. Shotgun cartridges 2.51 A shotgun certificate is not required to possess or acquire shotgun cartridges containing five or more shot, none of which exceeds .36 inch in diameter. All ordinary shot cartridges are covered by this description. However, a shotgun certificate (or firearm certificate authorising possession of a section 1 shotgun) is normally required to purchase shotgun cartridges. All single bulleted ammunition, for example solid slug, spherical ball or projectiles for birdscaring equipment, is subject to the requirement for a firearm certificate. Primers 5.16 The Violent Crime Reduction Act 2006 introduced controls on the purchase and sale of cap-type primers designed for use in metallic ammunition for a firearm, including empty cartridge cases incorporating such a primer. Section 35 of the 2006 Act makes it an offence to sell these items unless the purchaser: a) is a registered dealer; b) sells by way of any trade or business either primers or empty cartridge cases incorporating primers; c) produces a certificate (i.e. the original, not a photocopy) authorising them to possess a firearm of a relevant kind (i.e. a firearm other than a shotgun, an air weapon or a firearm chambered for rim-fire ammunition) or ammunition for such a firearm; d) is a duly authorised Crown servant; e) shows that they are entitled in law to possess a firearm or ammunition of a relevant kind without a certificate; f) produces a certificate (the original, not a photocopy) authorising another person to possess such a firearm, or such ammunition, together with that other persons authority to purchase primers on their behalf; or g) shows that they are authorised by regulations to purchase primers. To date no such regulations have been made. Section 35 also makes it an offence to buy, or attempt to buy, primers unless the purchaser meets the same criteria. The definitions used in section 35 mean that the offences do not apply to the purchase or sale of blank ammunition, shotgun primers or to percussion caps for muzzle-loading firearms. Thanks for the link here are all the parts that you seem to want to ignore carry on Munch chomp Deershooter Edited July 22, 2014 by deershooter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Underdog Posted July 22, 2014 Report Share Posted July 22, 2014 Yes...in law more than a shotgun licence is needed to hold shotgun ammo with a single projectile. A FAC is required. I understand that on an approved range a muzzleloader can shoot ball with the smoothbored muzzleloader on a shotgun cert. U. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deershooter Posted July 22, 2014 Report Share Posted July 22, 2014 Yes...in law more than a shotgun licence is needed to hold shotgun ammo with a single projectile. A FAC is required. I understand that on an approved range a muzzleloader can shoot ball with the smoothbored muzzleloader on a shotgun cert. U. That is correct sir , I have a friend who does this at my local club with a 50 cal muzzle loader with patched ball and mini bullets there is no provision to have a smooth bore on a FAC as this is a muzzle loader he does not have cartridges just projectiles and powder which are not section 1 ammo Deershooter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Underdog Posted July 22, 2014 Report Share Posted July 22, 2014 My brass shot shells work good. The 410 will work with shot close up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deershooter Posted July 22, 2014 Report Share Posted July 22, 2014 To keep on the right side of the law on this topic you would need the following 1, Fac to buy primers . 2, condition on Fac to hold / purchase solid slug ammunition . 3, condition on Fac of where the solid slug is to be used . 4, shot gun certificate to hold the .410 . 5, explosives licence to buy black powder ( not for substitute ). 6, RCA document from HSE to facilitate the transport of black powder from the shop to home and if required to take it to the range for muzzle loading. To the best of my knowledge you only have 4 the shotgun licence Tread carefully this is dangerous ground on an open forum ,work inside the law not outside .Big brother is watching and reading these posts ,I know Lincolnshire police firearms department do because I was told on renewal that the FEO didn't like some things I had posted about them . Deershooter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fileofax Posted July 22, 2014 Author Report Share Posted July 22, 2014 OK i am enough now thank you Deershooter i am not going to argue with anyone here thanks for your input and advice i would say more but i fail to put into words ..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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