berbick0107 Posted February 10, 2016 Report Share Posted February 10, 2016 I am currently loading 28gram fibre 12 gauge loads using 21 grains of vectan as and a cx2000 primer , my question is could I get around 1400 fps using vectan as ? Thank you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sitsinhedges Posted February 10, 2016 Report Share Posted February 10, 2016 Why do you want to? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rbrowning2 Posted February 10, 2016 Report Share Posted February 10, 2016 And where would one like the 1400 fps? At the muzzle, at V1, at V2.5 or observed velocity? Or why worry 21grains will do the business. See the excellent cartridge velocity post every cartridges is different but they all work if you put the shot in the correct place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
berbick0107 Posted February 10, 2016 Author Report Share Posted February 10, 2016 I've only just got into reloading and have had good results so far using 21grains of as, the reason I asked about 1400fps is I normally use hull superfast and was just wondering if I could get a similar performance with as. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sitsinhedges Posted February 10, 2016 Report Share Posted February 10, 2016 I've only just got into reloading and have had good results so far using 21grains of as, the reason I asked about 1400fps is I normally use hull superfast and was just wondering if I could get a similar performance with as. I don't think there is any reliable data supporting a very fast AS load but that's not to say it couldn't be pushed a bit further. You would have to build some loads and have them tested as being safe by the proof house. I think faster loads are usually achieved by using larger amounts of a slower powder ideally. 21grains of AS will be 1250+ fps as is and the tests on Hull Superfast show them doing low 1300's in reality. You have to wonder if it's worth worrying about as you will never know the difference in reality. 1250 is a nice speed for all applications, folk get carried away with big numbers that just bash you up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
berbick0107 Posted February 10, 2016 Author Report Share Posted February 10, 2016 Thank you Sitsinhedges , that's good advice I will stick with the tried and tested 21 grains of as. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hatsanmad Posted February 10, 2016 Report Share Posted February 10, 2016 Im loading a very nice 32grm load using AS. Kills perfectly patterns great. If your wanting to load a faster round then you can get with AS i would probably look at using A1. I also load a nice 28grm load of number 6 for my pigeon outings that works great. As long as you put the shot in the right place they will kill. The only time i want a really fast load is with my steel loads. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
berbick0107 Posted February 10, 2016 Author Report Share Posted February 10, 2016 Thanks for replies much appreciated!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hawkeye Posted February 12, 2016 Report Share Posted February 12, 2016 Im loading a very nice 32grm load using AS. Kills perfectly patterns great. If your wanting to load a faster round then you can get with AS i would probably look at using A1. I also load a nice 28grm load of number 6 for my pigeon outings that works great. As long as you put the shot in the right place they will kill. The only time i want a really fast load is with my steel loads. Nice to know have you not seen on there web site loads over 30gm are not recommended for AS or are they just being ultra careful.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hatsanmad Posted February 12, 2016 Report Share Posted February 12, 2016 Nice to know have you not seen on there web site loads over 30gm are not recommended for AS or are they just being ultra careful.... Well iv gone off proofed data that was given to me from clay and game. Its made a lovely round Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sitsinhedges Posted February 12, 2016 Report Share Posted February 12, 2016 Well iv gone off proofed data that was given to me from clay and game. Its made a lovely round Bet they never gave you any pressure data with it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hatsanmad Posted February 12, 2016 Report Share Posted February 12, 2016 Will have to root the data out to be able to tell you that. Will find it and let you know. But i am shooting mine through a 3.5 inch magnum gun Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sitsinhedges Posted February 12, 2016 Report Share Posted February 12, 2016 Will have to root the data out to be able to tell you that. Will find it and let you know. But i am shooting mine through a 3.5 inch magnum gun The reason I ask is that I am assuming that Clay and Game are regurgitating data from the old C&G CD. Most of the data on there was dodgy to say the least and potentially dangerous. I would advise caution with any data that doesn't have a full list of components and pressures or at least from a reputable source. Personally I would keep to the well tested 30gram loads in AS and move up to A1 for 32 gram loads that way you know you are safe in any standard shotgun. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hatsanmad Posted February 12, 2016 Report Share Posted February 12, 2016 The pressure stated is 627.60 bar of pressure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hatsanmad Posted February 12, 2016 Report Share Posted February 12, 2016 There is a full list of componets in the data. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sitsinhedges Posted February 12, 2016 Report Share Posted February 12, 2016 The pressure stated is 627.60 bar of pressure. Yeh, I looked at the CD data for that recipe and it says 610bar for 21grains of AS. I've proofed a 30 gram load with 21 grains of AS and it was getting 675bar for 1250 fps. Good luck to you if you're getting on OK with it but I bet with 2 grams of shot extra it's pretty close to the pressure limits if not over and I bet it's quite slow too. Have you chrono'ed any? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rbrowning2 Posted February 12, 2016 Report Share Posted February 12, 2016 (edited) The following link may help it shows AS for 30/32gm for both plastic and fibre wads. http://giorgiomuscas.altervista.org/caccia/polveri/AL.jpg But like most web data it shows no velocity or pressure. It is worth remembering lots of variation to pressure are possible due to how you reload, be that new or used cases, wad type make of plastic wad, type of fibre wad material cork or Diana, wad pressure, quality of crimp etc etc. Top link is http://giorgiomuscas.altervista.org/caccia/cariche.html and lots of other type of powder are listed, Being an Italian site confidence is high that they no what they are talking about, but best to work a load up and or use the proof house. Data I have is 12ga 70mm case 686 primer 32gm lead shot 1.4gm AS 380 m/s v2.5 650bar but verify before using. Edited February 12, 2016 by rbrowning2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sitsinhedges Posted February 12, 2016 Report Share Posted February 12, 2016 The following link may help it shows AS for 30/32gm for both plastic and fibre wads. http://giorgiomuscas.altervista.org/caccia/polveri/AL.jpg But like most web data it shows no velocity or pressure. It is worth remembering lots of variation to pressure are possible due to how you reload, be that new or used cases, wad type make of plastic wad, type of fibre wad material cork or Diana, wad pressure, quality of crimp etc etc. Top link is http://giorgiomuscas.altervista.org/caccia/cariche.html and lots of other type of powder are listed, Being an Italian site confidence is high that they no what they are talking about, but best to work a load up and or use the proof house. The problem is that this isn't really data and you can't work up a load without pressure data because you'll have little idea as to exactly what is happening. At best it's a starting point for testing. I can see an A0 recipe on there that is almost certainly over pressure. The problem with these sites is that they are taken as gospel and so reproduced as such elsewhere and so becomes self confirming. Good luck to everyone in what they choose to reload but I would just suggest being careful and recheck for your own safety using powders within their known parameters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rbrowning2 Posted February 12, 2016 Report Share Posted February 12, 2016 The problem is that this isn't really data and you can't work up a load without pressure data because you'll have little idea as to exactly what is happening. At best it's a starting point for testing. I can see an A0 recipe on there that is almost certainly over pressure. The problem with these sites is that they are taken as gospel and so reproduced as such elsewhere and so becomes self confirming. Good luck to everyone in what they choose to reload but I would just suggest being careful and recheck for your own safety using powders within their known parameters. Quite agree, which is why I say work the load up or use the proof house. I use a 3" chamber gun with the added safety that offers I.e 1050bar vs 740 for 2.3/4" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hatsanmad Posted February 12, 2016 Report Share Posted February 12, 2016 Same with me im using the load in a 3.5inch steel shot proofed magnum gun. Theres no signs of excess pressure to the hulls no thinning of the plastic the primer looks exactly like that of a fired factory round. No not chronoed it yet but will be doing so once the roost shooting has finished. It works well shoots great and kills and patterns very nicely. They counted for some very nice birds on beaters day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rbrowning2 Posted February 12, 2016 Report Share Posted February 12, 2016 It will not be that fast, So only chrono it if you must, but I have use 32gm number six shot with AS as a cheap pigeon cart for quite some time, I did use gm3 but that's is now difficult or expensive to get. A1 will give you better velocity but you need more of it so it is no longer a cheap pigeon cartridge. 380m/s will get the job done no problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sitsinhedges Posted February 12, 2016 Report Share Posted February 12, 2016 It will not be that fast, So only chrono it if you must, but I have use 32gm number six shot with AS as a cheap pigeon cart for quite some time, I did use gm3 but that's is now difficult or expensive to get. A1 will give you better velocity but you need more of it so it is no longer a cheap pigeon cartridge. 380m/s will get the job done no problem. Be interesting to know the speed, I would wager mid to high 1100's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hatsanmad Posted February 12, 2016 Report Share Posted February 12, 2016 I will let you know when i get chance to chrono them. But as i said for now im very happy with them they perform well. And everything i shot with this load was dead before they hit the floor. And shot some of the highest pheasant pigeon and partridge with them on beaters day. But will still chrono them when i can Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rbrowning2 Posted February 13, 2016 Report Share Posted February 13, 2016 Be interesting to know the speed, I would wager mid to high 1100's. May be so especially when Hatsanmad does a DIY chrono reading because as we know it is very difficult to replicate the proof house facility even getting the 2.5mtr distance spot on is far from easy and then getting reliable readings with fibre is another challenge then we are using are own gun not a proof barrel. If they are working well for you Hatsanmad i would not worry just continue with the confidence you have with them, rather than get all negative when you get a DIY velocity or compare that with a DIY velocity of a commercial cartridge you like. But as has been discussed before fast cartridges quickly lose their initial extra velocity ( assuming same shot size ) and by the time they are reaching a typical killing distance (30yards plus) the slower and fast are travelling at virtually the same velocity. Confidence is more important than a few extra feet per second is it not? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest cookoff013 Posted February 13, 2016 Report Share Posted February 13, 2016 I'd take 32g #5 at 1200fps as a great shell Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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