D Williamson

[wymberley]

Guys,

Come up against the proverbial brick wall, can anyone kindly steer me in the right direction to get info' on this gunmaker?

Cheers

[kevin55]

WILLIAMSON, David — New York, N. Y. The name appears on a per cussion derringer made under D. Williamson patent of Oct. 2, 1866, No. 58,525. Probably made by the National Arms Co., of Brooklyn, N. Y., or Moore Firearms Co. of Brooklyn (same firm), makers of Williamson arms.

 

BROOKLYN N.Y." and "D. WILLIAMSON'S PATENT JANUARY 5, 1864"

 

This is what i could find after a quick search

 

Nothing in Nigel Brown and would seem to be US based

 

K

Edited February 1, 2017 by kevin55

[kevin55]

And this:

 

Moore, Daniel, Moore’s Patent Fire Arms Co.—Brooklyn, N. Y. Moore received the following patents: April 3, 1855, side swung revolver; September 18, i860, revolver improvements; January 7, 1862, seven-shot, rim-fire revolver (pressure upon a stud to the right of the hammer allows the barrel and cylinder to swing to the right on a pivot at lower end of the frame) ; February 24, 1863, pistol, the barrel swings to the left to load. Moore’s patents were infringements on Smith & Wesson and were taken over by that firm. Produced D. Williamson's patent teat-fire revolver, patent of January 5, 1864. Active 1853-67.

[wymberley]

Thanks, Kevin.

I did find info' on pistols and derringers, but the reason i asked is because I've just suggested that one of the lads, provided he checked it out first, had a look an old SbS bearing that name. It was proofed in Birmingham twixt 1904 and '25. Seems it was in fine fettle and he bought it at a sensible price. It might still be on Gun Search.

[kevin55]

Thanks, Kevin.

I did find info' on pistols and derringers, but the reason i asked is because I've just suggested that one of the lads, provided he checked it out first, had a look an old SbS bearing that name. It was proofed in Birmingham twixt 1904 and '25. Seems it was in fine fettle and he bought it at a sensible price. It might still be on Gun Search.

 

There's 1 on Gun Trader at Hadfield Guns

 

https://www.guntrader.uk/guns/shotguns/d-williamson/side-by-side/12-gauge/160907151055002

 

K

[wymberley]

 

There was 1 on Gun Trader at Hadfield Guns

 

https://www.guntrader.uk/guns/shotguns/d-williamson/side-by-side/12-gauge/160907151055002

 

K

[kevin55]

N Brown London - I looked in Birmingham before - has a Dudley Williamson (est 1820) at 3 Waterloo Road 1906-11 and 5 Waterloo Road 1912-20

 

It looked to be a nice gun

 

K

[wymberley]

N Brown London - I looked in Birmingham before - has a Dudley Williamson (est 1820) at 3 Waterloo Road 1906-11 and 5 Waterloo Road 1912-20

 

It looked to be a nice gun

 

K

Thanks again.

I understand what you're saying, except for the 'N Brown London' bit. Is that some form of reference? I'm going to ask if there's an address on the rib as that might pin down the date of manufacture a bit. I won't get my hands on it until March, but it looks very good indeed. Except for the odd blemish where the forend has been the barrel flats are like the day it was made with the proof marks superbly clearly stamped and there's none other than would have been originally. Going to also ask for a photo of the firing pin holes which might give a clue to usage.

[Feltwad]

Images may help if a provincial gun maker

Feltwad

[kevin55]

Thanks again.

I understand what you're saying, except for the 'N Brown London' bit. Is that some form of reference? I'm going to ask if there's an address on the rib as that might pin down the date of manufacture a bit. I won't get my hands on it until March, but it looks very good indeed. Except for the odd blemish where the forend has been the barrel flats are like the day it was made with the proof marks superbly clearly stamped and there's none other than would have been originally. Going to also ask for a photo of the firing pin holes which might give a clue to usage.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/British-Gunmakers-London-v-1-x/dp/1904057470

 

 

This is 1 of Nigel Brown's books

 

K

[wymberley]

https://www.amazon.co.uk/British-Gunmakers-London-v-1-x/dp/1904057470

 

 

This is 1 of Nigel Brown's books

 

K

Ah, didn't realise! With NVN, I suspect as it is No 5 on the rib, then 1912 to 20 is the closest we're going to get with regard to age. Firing pin holes are still perfectly round and not oversize. There might be a problem with oil in the stock judging by the colour of the hand but other than that, I think the lad has struck lucky.

[Feltwad]

The gun which is a boxlock with Birmingham proof marks could have been built by the several families of Williansons who worked in Birmingham and the surrounding towns

Feltwad

[wymberley]

The gun which is a boxlock with Birmingham proof marks could have been built by the several families of Williansons who worked in Birmingham and the surrounding towns

Feltwad

Yep, and none the worse for that. But that would be purely coincidental. as the specifics on the rib are as Kevin kindly indicated.

[wymberley]

Found him - with a twist:

 

https://www.oldbaileyonline.org/browse.jsp?div=t19091207-15

[Velocette]

https://www.oldbaile...iv=t19091207-15

 

I have a book by Macdonald Hastings called "The Other Mr Churchill" which is a fascinating biography of Robert Churchill,,the expert witness in this case. He had an ongoing wrangle with Major Burrard of shotgun fame, as to who was the better interpreter of firearms forensic issues.

[wymberley]

https://www.oldbaile...iv=t19091207-15

 

I have a book by Macdonald Hastings called "The Other Mr Churchill" which is a fascinating biography of Robert Churchill,,the expert witness in this case. He had an ongoing wrangle with Major Burrard of shotgun fame, as to who was the better interpreter of firearms forensic issues.

In this case it was Robert's father Henry - Robert would have been just 23.

[Velocette]

This is a can of worms we have here,,Henry John Churchill is the witness above,,,my book has Henry Elton Churchill as Roberts father,,and Edwin John Churchill,,Henry Eltons older brother as the gunmaker. Henry Elton Churchill was a printer at Cassells printing works.

What do you make of that ?

[wymberley]

This is a can of worms we have here,,Henry John Churchill is the witness above,,,my book has Henry Elton Churchill as Roberts father,,and Edwin John Churchill,,Henry Eltons older brother as the gunmaker. Henry Elton Churchill was a printer at Cassells printing works.

What do you make of that ?

I agree, it's can of worms and it's not helped by the fact that the family kept repeating Christian names down through the generations which is how I slipped up. However, it's not that simple - when is a can of worms?

 

There has to be a mistake somewhere. There was a Henry (Edwin) John Churchill (Edwin John's son), born in1878, but the problem is he died in 1902. Consequently, either the court records are wrong or something else is. It would seem that either a very young (23 - he joined the family firm in 1899) Robert gave evidence or it was Edwin John himself.

 

For me, unless there was another Henry John kicking about unmentioned, I have not a clue unless my reference author slipped up as well - or the clerk of the court did - namely, Don Masters 'The House of Churchill' in which there is a comprehensive family genealogy and company time line at the beginning.

[Velocette]

It becomes a little clearer,,,in the case of Samuel Herbert Dougal,hanged in 1903,,Hastings notes that there was a misprint of Edwins Christian name as Henry. This is mentioned in "Notable British Trials"

So,,,it would appear that Edwin John Churchill was indeed the expert witness initially mentioned,,,and he was Robert Churchills uncle.

Also,,Robert was indeed 23 when his uncle died in Nov. 1910 and he first took over the business and first gave expert evidence in No.1 Court,the Old Bailey in Jan.1911.

[wymberley]

It becomes a little clearer,,,in the case of Samuel Herbert Dougal,hanged in 1903,,Hastings notes that there was a misprint of Edwins Christian name as Henry. This is mentioned in "Notable British Trials"

So,,,it would appear that Edwin John Churchill was indeed the expert witness initially mentioned,,,and he was Robert Churchills uncle.

Also,,Robert was indeed 23 when his uncle died in Nov. 1910 and he first took over the business and first gave expert evidence in No.1 Court,the Old Bailey in Jan.1911.

Nice one!

But my head's still hurting so we won't pick up on the expert witness war with Burrard nor the other one with The Field/Burrard regarding 25" barrels in which a young upstart called Garwood got involved in.

Many thanks for the clarification.