Homeloaded 243

[Oly]

Just to re-open this one...was in Minsterley Ranges yesterday who recommended 70-90gn Nosler BTs over Partitions for Deer - with the arguement that BTs are a controlled expansion tip and that they explode giving a greater wound and even stating that he had used them on Reds in .243 and had liquidated the heart and lungs, hence they don't get runners as often. When asked about pentration levels though he said that you either go broadside, or if it's look like more of a raking shot to go for a head/neck shot instead - then your more likely to either get a clean kill or a clean miss.

 

He admitted that if your supplying a game dealer you might want soft nose bullets to reduce meat damage but if it's for your own pot go for BT and reduce the risk of losing a deer.

 

Also when I looked at the 90gn Nosler BT in .243 they DO state that they are suitable for deer.

 

Comments??

[leeboy]

I'm getting worried now. My shooting partner who owns the rifle was told on his DSC 1 to stop using 100gn soft points and change to ballistic tips in 70gn as these were supposed to be much better on Roe and a good alround bullet for everything.

 

Are you guys saying this is illegal ? because if so I need to tell him ASAP !!

 

I will say though that the 70gn B tips flatten them just as well as the 100gn soft points, and to date he has not shot a deer that has not dropped on the spot.

No deer has even run a couple of feet, they all go down as if poleaxed.

 

Please advise.

 

Leeboy

[mry716]

70gr and 80gn Ballistic Tips in a 243 are definitely NOT suitable for deer and must not be used. They are Varmint bullets and have a thinner copper jacket with no bonding that allows a very quick expansion not a controlled one.

 

Your friend is shooting Roe illegally.

[leeboy]

70gr and 80gn Ballistic Tips in a 243 are definitely NOT suitable for deer and must not be used. They are Varmint bullets and have a thinner copper jacket with no bonding that allows a very quick expansion not a controlled one.

 

Your friend is shooting Roe illegally.

 

Thanks for that. What I cant understand is why he would be told on his DSC course to change to 70gn ballistic tips ? The whole group on the course were told the same thing, and the instructor said that is what he uses

 

I've just been reading the home office guidance and it is puzzling as it seems contradictory about use of a smooth bore but doesn't say much about bullets other than soft nose or hollow points.

 

Thanks again

 

Leeboy

[Browning]

Thanks for that. What I cant understand is why he would be told on his DSC course to change to 70gn ballistic tips ? The whole group on the course were told the same thing, and the instructor said that is what he uses

 

I would suggest that the DSC instructor is a **** and should not be in the position that he is.

 

Where was the course taken?

[Oly]

I decided that the facts needed checking:

 

Cumbria Police Firearms Dept stated that Ballistic Tips are perfectly legal for deer

 

(Decided to ring my old force as they are **** hot & know their stuff inside out & backwards! - for an example they said that there was nothing illegal in shooting a Red Deer with a .243Win and a 70gn V-Max)

[stevethevanman]

I think it may come down to the shooters preference as there is clearly two opinions that both think they are right

 

Steve

[mry716]

The law is the law - Read it and then tell the Police to do the same.

[Bazooka Joe]

for an example they said that there was nothing illegal in shooting a Red Deer with a .243Win and a 70gn V-Max)

 

What was your reply to that OLY ?

 

BJ.

[Paul223]

http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts1991/Ukpga..._en_4.htm#sdiv2

Also have a look here as the laws are changing

http://www.defra.gov.uk/corporate/consult/...onsultation.pdf

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/c...g/948/94802.htm

 

[Oly]

Well I can't argue with the police can I?? With all due respect I've dealt with Cumbria Police a lot over the years (most of whom shoot extensively) and I trust their knowledge & judgement in this area over all others.

 

Paul, the sources of information I have sought have all stated that ballistic tips are classed as hollow in the eyes of the law.

 

Plus you must admit the evidence is stacking up against the likes of mry's response, if the police agree with what RFD's and the ammunition manfacturers state, plus others experience on here you have to say that the argument stating ballistic tips are OK & legal wins hands down IMHO.

[leeboy]

I decided that the facts needed checking:

 

Cumbria Police Firearms Dept stated that Ballistic Tips are perfectly legal for deer

 

(Decided to ring my old force as they are **** hot & know their stuff inside out & backwards! - for an example they said that there was nothing illegal in shooting a Red Deer with a .243Win and a 70gn V-Max)

 

 

Thanks for clearing that up. I'm much relieved.

 

Leeboy

[Oly]

Thanks for clearing that up. I'm much relieved.

Leeboy

 

No worries...it's always vindicating to know what your doing is NOT criminal!

[Paul223]

From hornady web site, bullet designed to expand in a predictable manner ( inter-bond )

https://www.hornady.com/shop/Bullets_InterBond_popup.htm

 

and explosive expansion ( vmax )

https://www.hornady.com/shop/Bullets_VMAX_popup.htm

 

I wouldn't rely on the police to get anything right, don't you remember the Birmingham 4!

 

Also i note looking through the dsc1 course book that the words predictable manner are only used for Scotland, hollow point and soft nosed are used for England and Wales, haven't looked at NI

However who would really want to shoot woodland reds or fallow with a 70g v max.... :yp:

[Oly]

However who would really want to shoot woodland reds or fallow with a 70g v max....

 

According to the RFDs and Firearms Police quite a few. Drop on the spot rather than running the risk of lost deer...worth a bit of meat damage in my book.

[Paul223]

However who would really want to shoot woodland reds or fallow with a 70g v max....

 

According to the RFDs and Firearms Police quite a few. Drop on the spot rather than running the risk of lost deer...worth a bit of meat damage in my book.

And IF you miss judge the shot or the deer moves and the bullet placement is 4 inch forward or to the back???..... or the beast sees you first and is full of adrenalin??

[Oly]

And IF you miss judge the shot or the deer moves and the bullet placement is 4 inch forward or to the back???..... or the beast sees you first and is full of adrenalin??

 

 

4 inch forward & adrenaline, no worries, should still do the job 4 inchs back (i.e. a potential leg/shoulder hit)...tricky one...but you would make decision on the day in the situation...as all ARE different.

 

From what I have heard from many who use the round state that in all situations apart from shoulder hits the job that a BT does over a soft nose is far superior with greater control of the animal (as it drops rather than runs).

 

If you mis-judge the shot (which is just as likely to happen with a soft nose as a BT) a BT is more likely to drop the animal than a soft nose regard of where it hits as it causes greater damage.

 

The ONLY benefit to a soft nose over a ballistic tip appears to be in penetration if the shot hits a substantial bone...even then it's not garenteed.

 

It still comes down to careful & accurate shot placement...which is the same regardless.

[Browning]

I can't speak from experience here, because I have never been (and will never be) stupid enough to use a

varmint ballistic tip (i.e. 75gn V-Max) on ANY deer. I have too much respect for the deer that I shoot.

 

I have in the past, and will again in the future, invited like minded shooters from this and another forum

to stalk deer on my permissions with me. If any of them had turned up loaded with 75gn VMax I would have sent them packing

before they even got out of the car. Luckily they didn't, as they are all experienced stalkers with respect for their quarry.

 

It still comes down to careful & accurate shot placement...which is the same regardless.

 

So what happens when ribs get in the way? A 75gn V-Max driven at 3,500 fps is capable of exploding on impact

and punching a hole through the ribes with maybe just enough force to puncture a lung.....I can't see that beast dying very quicly can you?

 

Which ever way you look at it, whichever RFD, FEO, DSC "experts" you listen to.

The Varmint bullets are not designed for shooting deer, that is what the manufacturers of those bullets state.

[Oly]

I can't speak from experience here...

 

In which case should you not be keeping an open mind until you see the evidence for yourself??

 

So what happens when ribs get in the way? A 75gn V-Max driven at 3,500 fps is capable of exploding on impact

and punching a hole through the ribes with maybe just enough force to puncture a lung.....I can't see that beast dying very quicly can you?

 

From the information I have been given I have heard of numerous reds being shot with .243 70gn Nosler BT and the heart and lungs liquidate ...so it IS capable of pentration of ribs with ease. Like I have mentioned previously the only downside is when you hit a SUBSTANTIAL bone like a leg or shoulder.

 

The Varmint bullets are not designed for shooting deer, that is what the manufacturers of those bullets state.

 

That's not what the side of recently purchased 6mm 70gn Nosler BT state - it clearly states that they are fine for deer.

[Browning]

In which case should you not be keeping an open mind until you see the evidence for yourself??

 

...

 

Oly, the only way to get experience is to try something. Fortunately for me, and the deer that I am shooting,

I will never have the experience of shooting deer with a varmint bullet.

[Bazooka Joe]

for an example they said that there was nothing illegal in shooting a Red Deer with a .243Win and a 70gn V-Max)

 

Youv'e missed the point Oly, I was asking your response to the advice given by the Muppet by Cumbria Police.

 

I've dealt with Cumbria Police a lot over the years (most of whom shoot extensively) and I trust their knowledge & judgement in this area over all others.

 

Judging by the top statement, I beg to differ,

 

BJ.

[Paul223]

Now before anyone points it out the charts are for .224dia bullets but I see no problem why the penetration would not be comparable ( IE levels of as apposed to the same as ) , however have a look at penetration using v max against 60g partition ( on second chart ) if and when the shot does go t*ts up you would be happier having a blood trail to follow

http://www.rathcoombe.net/sci-tech/ballist...tical-test.html

 

Edited to add

Have a read to understand more

http://www.hornady.com/ballistics/terminal.php

[mry716]

This sort of thread is doing a disservice to shooting generally.

 

Irrespective of the law some bullets are acceptable for deer others are not.

 

To use the 'wrong' bullet is one thing but to come on an open forum and tell everyone that you do so is another. It is even worse when people quote the Police as saying Ballistic Tips are acceptable for deer as a contradiction to my previous post.

 

I have never said they are not - I use them all the time in my 308 - but only the Hunting Ballistic Tip NOT the Varmint ones.

 

In 243 the 55, 70 and 80grn are not suitable - They are Varmint bullets the 90 and 95gn are suitable as they are a Hunting bullet.

 

As far as I am concerned this sort of question should never need to be asked - if you stalk you should know the law and if you reload should know what and what not to use for any particular quarry and that should be BEFORE you even fire a shot.

 

We have enough problems with 'Cowboys' in all aspects of our sport without them posting their ignorance on shooting Forums and doing all of us a disservice..

[Oly]

I hate to stick the boot in here but werent you the chap only a few weeks ago we had to dissuade from using 105 A-max on foxes?

 

I asked the question I was simply after information...it's how I make informed decisions.

 

We have enough problems with 'Cowboys' in all aspects of our sport without them posting their ignorance on shooting Forums and doing all of us a disservice..

 

OK, all I am doing is quoting the evidence I have gathered...and to be honest I trust those sources more than some on here. As for ignorance...by definition only the uninformed are ignorant, and by NOT having these discussions are we turely ignorant.

 

Your friend is shooting Roe illegally.

 

What were you saying about being ignorant??

[leeboy]

This sort of thread is doing a disservice to shooting generally.

 

Irrespective of the law some bullets are acceptable for deer others are not.

 

To use the 'wrong' bullet is one thing but to come on an open forum and tell everyone that you do so is another. It is even worse when people quote the Police as saying Ballistic Tips are acceptable for deer as a contradiction to my previous post.

 

I have never said they are not - I use them all the time in my 308 - but only the Hunting Ballistic Tip NOT the Varmint ones.

 

In 243 the 55, 70 and 80grn are not suitable - They are Varmint bullets the 90 and 95gn are suitable as they are a Hunting bullet.

 

As far as I am concerned this sort of question should never need to be asked - if you stalk you should know the law and if you reload should know what and what not to use for any particular quarry and that should be BEFORE you even fire a shot.

 

We have enough problems with 'Cowboys' in all aspects of our sport without them posting their ignorance on shooting Forums and doing all of us a disservice..

 

 

I thought the whole Idea of these forums is to share knowledge and experience. We are all ignorant until until we learn from someone else. Just because some people disagree it doesn't make it wrong to post. This is the whole point of the forum.

 

In Olys defence, he's been told its ok by the old bill. He should be able to take that as gospel, shouldn't he ?

 

My mate has been told on his DSC that it is a better choice by the instructor. He took the blokes advice and every deer shot drops without a twitch just like its been 'switched off' and the heart and lungs are smashed to bits. I've witnessed this myself and cant imagine anything quicker or more humane except maybe a pistol to the back of the head.

 

I dont own a rifle and am not an expert on the subject but who are we supposed to believe/listen to, the police, the DSC instructor, actual experience or someone on an internet forum ?

 

Confusing stuff eh !

 

This is exactly why these questions and opinions should be posted in the hope of aquiring knowledge.

 

The average tree hugging vegan anti/busybody who might possibly read the post probably wouldn't know what a ballistic tip was if he was shot in the **** with one.

 

Leeboy