Oly Posted July 24, 2007 Report Share Posted July 24, 2007 Your right Leeboy, if this isn't the place to air such matters where is Don't knock what you don't know...and from those who are knocking this not one of them has said that they have actually witnessed results to the contrary, and I sorry to say it on here...but by keeping their minds closed to new ideas are themselves being ignorant. I'm not saying it's right or wrong...just trying to make informed decisions...but from the evidence provided I don't think I would worry about trying them on my permissions in order to complete the circle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mry716 Posted July 24, 2007 Report Share Posted July 24, 2007 This particular thread has irritated me to the point of my posting rather more personal rebukes than I would normally wish to do. It seems as if this subject is a debate on all forums at the present and the lack of understanding by some people on the differences between different types of bullets even when spelt out in quite simple terms rather galls. I am afraid that on numerous occasions I have found the Police lacking when it comes to requesting specifics regarding the law and as far as reloading is concerned there seems to be a great knowledge gap throughout the country. The actuality of the law is rather less than satisfactory as there are three different sets of wording for basically the same requirement and since the Act was written bullet styles have changed and manufacturers have developed new designs. Unfortunately Nosler in particular developed two different types of bullet for two different purposes but in a way that makes them visually look the same. In Scotland and Northern Ireland any bullet that expands in anything other than a 'Controlled manner' is illegal. So those bullets designed as Varmint bullets are illegal simply because they expand in an uncontrolled manner. This includes those bullets made by all manufacturers. As far as the Deer Act relating to England and Wales is concerned if we take the wording literally anyone using ANY nylon tipped bullet is doing so illegally as the law requires a soft point or hollow point. It has generally been accepted that until the Act is rewritten the wording for Northern Ireland and Scotland is appropriate and if you consult with the Home Office as I have done you will find their attitude is along those lines. They accept that the nylon tip style of bullet in hunting format designed to expand in a controlled manner is in effect a 'Hollow Point'with an insert and therefore acceptable. No where in the UK is it acceptable to use any bullet that is designed to expand in a violent of explosive manner as the effects on an animal are unpredictable? I have had guests that have used such bullets unbeknown to me. In one example the deer was neck shot and although killed the extreme expansion of the bullet allowed fragments of jacket to pierce the lungs, the saddle and the front leg. Having seen first hand on various occasions the totally undesirable effects of using the 'wrong'bullet on live quarry makes me particularly vehement in decrying the practice. If I have offended anyone on this forum then I apologise but will not change my stance as no live animal should be shot in a way that may well cause suffering and it behooves each and every shooter to uphold that stance with each and every shot they take. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oly Posted July 24, 2007 Report Share Posted July 24, 2007 This particular thread has irritated me to the point of my posting rather more personal rebukes than I would normally wish to do. If I have offended anyone on this forum then I apologise Good response, fair enough. With regard to the above, I know what you mean and I feel the same. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul223 Posted July 24, 2007 Report Share Posted July 24, 2007 Any way getting back to the original post.....Vmax, are you the same bloke off p4s and hl, if so can't remember if you reload or not, if you do reload have a think about using these http://www.reloadbench.com/store/ctd/19302.html Not had any experience with them myself, but have read a few good things about them Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Browning Posted July 25, 2007 Report Share Posted July 25, 2007 I took the liberty of emailing Hornady yesterday afternoon, and asked them all about V-Max bullets and deer. Here is there response, word for word, cut and pasted directly from their email response:- "V-MAX Bullets were designed for small varmint hunting only. They probably won't penetrate deep enough, or have a controlled expansion on any deer to put them down in a repeatable manner. We don't recommend it. Good luck!" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oly Posted July 25, 2007 Report Share Posted July 25, 2007 The Nosler website states that their BTs as being "Hunting's Deadliest Deer Bullet" Surely that has to be fairly explicit? http://www.nosler.com/index.php?p=3&bullet=1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mry716 Posted July 25, 2007 Report Share Posted July 25, 2007 OLY that is exactly what I have been saying. Some B/tips are Hunting some are Varmint The bullets you stated above are fine they expand in a controlled manner as their copper jackets are thicker these http://www.nosler.com/index.php?p=3&bullet=2 do not as their jackets are fragile and 'explode' on contact in an uncontrolled manner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oly Posted July 25, 2007 Report Share Posted July 25, 2007 Have we been going round in circles then, as it's the ones I just posted that I was talking about i.e. http://www.nosler.com/index.php?p=3&bullet=1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mry716 Posted July 25, 2007 Report Share Posted July 25, 2007 Oly You were talking about using 70gr Balistic Tips on Red..........that is where the discrepency lies. Hunting Balistic Tips that you quote above for 243 are only made in 90 & 95gr - the smaller weights are not Hunting and are NOT to be used on deer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oly Posted July 25, 2007 Report Share Posted July 25, 2007 I disagree, if you go through the Nosler data they show the hunting (rather than varmint) rounds for 243 down to 50/55gns (now I am not saying that I would go that low for deer!!). Plus, like I mentioned previously the side of a recently purchased Nosler 70gn hunting BT says that they are fine for deer...I'll have to dig them out and try to get a picture on here for you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mry716 Posted July 25, 2007 Report Share Posted July 25, 2007 No, NOT On the Nosler site that my computer shows me and not in any of the Nosler brochures for the past 10 years. This is the listing of Hunting Bullets suitable for deer in 6mm http://www.nosler.com/index.php?p=11&b=5&s=5 This is the listng of Varmint Bullets availaqble in 6mm http://www.nosler.com/index.php?p=11&b...;s=17&t=6mm Now if you can find anything different on you PC please do let us all know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markbivvy Posted July 25, 2007 Report Share Posted July 25, 2007 Well I can't argue with the police can I?? With all due respect I've dealt with Cumbria Police a lot over the years (most of whom shoot extensively) and I trust their knowledge & judgement in this area over all others. Paul, the sources of information I have sought have all stated that ballistic tips are classed as hollow in the eyes of the law. Plus you must admit the evidence is stacking up against the likes of mry's response, if the police agree with what RFD's and the ammunition manfacturers state, plus others experience on here you have to say that the argument stating ballistic tips are OK & legal wins hands down IMHO. police right, read this. http://www.airgunbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=210339 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharlieT Posted July 25, 2007 Report Share Posted July 25, 2007 I have only just seen this topic and read all the threads and to be honest I wish I had not. Arguing the use of varmint bullets for harvesting deer is just unbelievable. Whilst I can fully understand some of the daft questions from a newbie to rimfire, I really can not believe that anyone with a modicum of intelligence or experience not understanding or for that matter bothering to understand the manufacturing differences between hunting and varmint BT heads. Upto now I have been against any form of "shooting sports testing" be it DSC or whatever. I have also thought the BDS and St Hubert Club a little closed shop and full of old fogies for my liking. However after reading recent posts perhaps the time has come for more stringent controls for deer caliber rifles and the compulsory testing of applicants by say the BDS before anyone is permitted to even think of shooting a deer. MRY has explained in simple to understand words what is the correct ammo to use and why, please use it. Don't treat deer as rabbits or crows, they deserve better. Charlie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
v-max Posted July 25, 2007 Author Report Share Posted July 25, 2007 Hello all & thank's to the many replie's & it seem's we all have some thing to learn from it.I new that there was a hunting nosler & a varmint & new on the box of the varmint bullet's said not for deer use but was unaware it was illegal to do so thank's.M main reason for this topic was that of the bullet weight that the stalker used in england as i thought it was minimum 100g.Im not disputing lighter deer legal deer bullet's arent good in 6mm as i have used before with great effect & in .224 cal's.So my question now is can you legally load a 243 with 70g sp for roe/munty/cwd in england. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mry716 Posted July 25, 2007 Report Share Posted July 25, 2007 It would seem that various folk would benefit from a fuller description of Deer and the Law than can ever be posted on this forum. May I suggest anyone who shoots deer or even wishes to should purchase a copy of the following. Charlie PARKES & John THORNLEY – DEER: Law and Liabilities. Published by Swan Hill Press ISBN 1 84037 096 3 This will cover all aspects of shooting deer in a simple, informative and very readable way. An excellent book for us all to have on our bookshelves. Vmax For you.................... in England and Wales the requirements are as follows. Rifles: Calibre not less than .240 or muzzle energy of not less than 1700ft lb Ammo: Bullet must be Soft Nosed (SP) or Hollow Point (HP) That is it - there are no specifications as to the min weight bullet that must be used. It will depend on calibre and the energy any particular bullet offers in that calibre. In Northern Ireland and Scotland there are different criteria and they include a min bullet weight of 100gr in most circumstances as well as other criteria in conjunction with bullet weight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oly Posted July 25, 2007 Report Share Posted July 25, 2007 Well I can't argue with the police can I?? With all due respect I've dealt with Cumbria Police a lot over the years (most of whom shoot extensively) and I trust their knowledge & judgement in this area over all others. Paul, the sources of information I have sought have all stated that ballistic tips are classed as hollow in the eyes of the law. Plus you must admit the evidence is stacking up against the likes of mry's response, if the police agree with what RFD's and the ammunition manfacturers state, plus others experience on here you have to say that the argument stating ballistic tips are OK & legal wins hands down IMHO. police right, read this. http://www.airgunbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=210339 Sorry Mark, couldn't see the part that mentioned Cumbria Police, could you cut and paste it in here please? I know what your trying to get at but that is a massively over-generalised statement, unless I'm missing something?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markbivvy Posted July 25, 2007 Report Share Posted July 25, 2007 but that is a massively over-generalised statement, do you think so. do a search on any shooting forum and you will find nearly every police licensing authority have given out wrong info. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oly Posted July 25, 2007 Report Share Posted July 25, 2007 do you think so. do a search on any shooting forum and you will find nearly every police licensing authority have given out wrong info. I do think so, I have dealt with Cumbria Police often over the years and have always found them to be spot on the mark and fast and efficient, and I would trust those many personal experiences over any "internet rating" any day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markbivvy Posted July 25, 2007 Report Share Posted July 25, 2007 do you think so. do a search on any shooting forum and you will find nearly every police licensing authority have given out wrong info. I do think so, I have dealt with Cumbria Police often over the years and have always found them to be spot on the mark and fast and efficient, and I would trust those many personal experiences over any "internet rating" any day. well bully for you oly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oly Posted July 25, 2007 Report Share Posted July 25, 2007 do you think so. do a search on any shooting forum and you will find nearly every police licensing authority have given out wrong info. I do think so, I have dealt with Cumbria Police often over the years and have always found them to be spot on the mark and fast and efficient, and I would trust those many personal experiences over any "internet rating" any day. well bully for you oly. err...thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oly Posted July 25, 2007 Report Share Posted July 25, 2007 Anyone seen the Optimal Game Weight Formula as a guide to bullet weight to game size?? http://www.flyinglead.info/Ballistics/formulas.html As a guide it indicates that a 70gn bullet at ~3400fps should be fine for any game up to 250lbs...which indicates that it should be fine for all deer apart from the larger red stags. (in case you were wondering http://www.deer-uk.com/red_deer.htm) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mry716 Posted July 26, 2007 Report Share Posted July 26, 2007 I am also sure Oly that if you search long enough you will find lots of sites that confirm your belief that the world is flat and the moon made of cheese. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oly Posted July 26, 2007 Report Share Posted July 26, 2007 I am also sure Oly that if you search long enough you will find lots of sites that confirm your belief that the world is flat and the moon made of cheese. Like it ...doubt any qualified professionals would confirm it too though! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mry716 Posted July 26, 2007 Report Share Posted July 26, 2007 Seriously though Oly 50+ years ago my Grandmother said something that seems to be applicable to yourself in respect of this thread. "There's none so blind as them that don't want to see" Please find a copy of the Deer Act on the internet and read the wording. There is little ambiguity there to provide you with much if any leeway from what I have been saying. 30.1mph in a 30mph limit is still breaking the law and therefore wrong even if a prosecution would never be made for that sort of law breaking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oly Posted July 26, 2007 Report Share Posted July 26, 2007 Please find a copy of the Deer Act on the internet and read the wording. There is little ambiguity there to provide you with much if any leeway from what I have been saying. Do you mean this bit?? Ammunition 4. Any cartridge for use in a smooth-bore gun. 5. Any bullet for use in a rifle other than a soft-nosed or hollow-nosed bullet. What has been presented are classed in the eyes of the law as being hollow-nosed...or are we talking about a different section?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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