Agression

[reddeer 40]

Hi,

Two years ago I kept 2 male Smal Munsterlanders out of the same nest.

Now the problems are getting realy bad, from morning til evening they are fighting.

I made seperate fences for them, but even then it does not stop. And it is getting even worse when I am in the area. Last week they started to fight in my car returning from the field. Any suggestions to solve this problem?

[tiercel]

Sell one of them. You know that they are trying to dominate each other, and if they are evenly matched you could end up with two not one dead dog. Either that or build seperate kennels, and only take them out one at a time.

[new to the flock]

Must say I have to agree with Tercel on this one...you have gone past an aggression problem here, and are into a full bore HATE. If this had been delt with when they were 5 months old you would have been fine, now you are setting yourself up for some very expensive vet bills and possibly a personal injury to yourself or someone you know. Do yourself a favour and get rid of one of them. However that being said disclose to the buyer exactly why you are selling this dog as there is a good chance he will be a problem around other male dogs as well.

[Jeff B]

Hi Reddeer

 

It depends how you feel about keeping both dogs, selling one of them would obviously solve the problem.

 

Aggression between siblings is not rare and often occurs at maturity and is down to establising status. It is important you do not support the underdog as this will falsely bolster his confidence and only make the more dominant one try harder. Trying to treat two dogs as equals will only undermine the natural tendency toward a hierarchy. The dog that is the more dominant in a relationship needs to be supported and the more subordinate must learn to accept his position.

 

Usually once the heirachy it firmly established the serious aggression often ceases.

 

Castration is an option, should you consider this you should castrate the underdog only, in doing this you will help establish a greater status distance between them. Castrating them both changes nothing.

 

If you decide to sell one of them, you must inform the new owner of the reason for selling although the aggression towards siblings does not necessarily mean the dog will be aggressive to other dogs.

 

Hope this helps

 

Jeff

[Jeff B]

Redeer

 

You can get a teatment, a chemical castration, from the vet that when given to a dog will emulate the effect of castration. It is often used as a test before going ahead with the operation.

 

I believe it is called Tardak, but i don't know how much it will cost.

 

Jeff

[juddy]

what causes a dog to hate other dogs ive got a german shepherd and its a nightmare he sees another dog and goes mad even with strangers

[new to the flock]

It depends how you feel about keeping both dogs, selling one of them would obviously solve the problem.

 

Aggression between siblings is not rare and often occurs at maturity and is down to establising status. The dog that is the more dominant in a relationship needs to be supported and the more subordinate must learn to accept his position.

 

Usually once the heirachy it firmly established the serious aggression often ceases.

 

Castration is an option, should you consider this you should castrate the underdog only, in doing this you will help establish a greater status distance between them. Castrating them both changes nothing.

 

 

Hope this helps

 

Jeff

Jeff B:

 

I agree with alot of your points in your post. However I have to disagree with your establishing a hierachy statement. I believe that this has gone way past that. In the original post Red Deer states "it is getting even worse when I am in the area." this is an indication of siblings that are fighting over jelousy. If jelousy is the case then you are not going to work out a hierachy. Unfortunately every now and then you get dogs that hate each other, and there is nothing that you can do. These dogs are well into being adults, and any sibling rivalry would have been worked out around a year of age. You must also take into account the dogs breeding, many of the "older" lines in the continentals are known to contain some aggressive lines. This is especially true in GWP, GSP, and Munsterlanders.

 

Casteration to solve this problem was a possible solution in the beginning, however at 2 years of age in a situation where the dogs have already set a presidence for fighting, I believe you are only going to confuse things more...especially if you casterate the wrong dog. Casterated and neuterd dogs will still try to breed females if they have been altered later in life, and will still try to climb the pack hierarchy as well. It is not uncommon to have an altered male ruling a sleddog yard and team.

 

Red Deer,

you now have 2 answers that are from differant ends of the opinion scale. I would suggest you study them both very carefully , develop a list of questions, even print this off, and call on half a dozen of the veterinarians in your area. Allow them to read this over, ask your questions, and take their advice into account. Also if you know anyone else with dogs from the same lines, (not the same litter), contact them to see if they have had any problems in the past.

 

Good Luck....NTTF

[Jeff B]

Aggression is without doubt the most common behavioural problem with dogs and because everyone’s circumstances are different each case should be evaluated by a professional behaviourist.

 

That said I do believe in Red Deer’s case the aggression is down to the dogs establishing the hierarchy. The fact that they are litter brothers and as such temperamentally similar and the fact that the fighting , as far as we know, is confined to each other would bear this out. I understand what NTTF is saying but dogs do not fight and risk injury without a motive and this case has all the signs of a dominance struggle. The fighting will often escalate in the owners presence as it gives a further dimension to the struggle, winning the owners attention. If the owner actively intervenes this can and often does confuse matters as both dogs believe they are getting added support which in turn gives extra impetus to the battle.

 

Sibling rivalry is not confined to early puppy hood, it often escalates when the dogs reach sexual and social maturity, this can be any time between 1 - 3 years of age. With both dogs the same age and from the same genetic background the fighting can continue until one achieves dominance and the other concedes.

 

The dog’s breeding is a factor as all aggression is of genetic origin, but some dog’s have a lower tolerance level than others. I agree it is possible for castrated male to become a leader but this is by consensus, it is not essential in all circumstances that a dog has to have a reproductive ability to achieve leadership status, but, if a younger dog has the desire to be the leader and a fight for the position is likely the castrated male will often concede defeat without a fight.

 

Aggression is a massive and fascinating subject and best treated by a one to one consultation with a behaviourist.

 

One suggestion that can be tried is after separating them from a fight lock them away separate places for half an hour or so without any contact, release them when they have calmed down, if they start again repeat the process and keep it up until they start to tolerate each other. In addition increase the obedience training so as to maintant/establish your own position.

 

As NTTF says - good luck.

 

Jeff

[reddeer 40]

Thanks for all the reactions, with pain in my heart I decided to get rid of one.

I will keep the one who is less dominant, he is also best retrieving & best nose. It was a bit sentimental for me because it were pups coming from a breed of my old dog who past away last year. I'm gone build seperate kennels & later I'm going to look for a bitch, that will be better. All the best,

[Jeff B]

Reddeer

 

It is always sad to part with a dog, but in your case I believe you have made the correct decision for yourself and the dogs, there is always a lot of work involved in trying to resolve aggression behaviour problems and with never any certainty you will succeed.

 

Obviously you need to make the new owner aware of the problems you have had but, if it was down to sibling rivalry there shouldn't be any further difficulties with either dog.

 

You can now concentrate training and developing your dog into the companion you were always hoping for, but without the aggression distractions for all concerned.

 

Take your time and develop a strong and trusting relationship with your dog, progressive training sessions in a calm and cheerful atmosphere will greatly assist in achieving this

 

Best of luck.

 

Jeff

[rjimmer]

Next time, get a Flatcoat bitch!

 

http://www.flatcoated-retrievers.com

[new to the flock]

Jeff B:

 

 

You have some very valid points in your, assesment of Red Deers situation. Many of which I agree with some of which I disagree with, mainly " all aggression is of genetic origin". I am a firm believer that you have genetic aggression, and you have enviromental aggression. But you are spot on with aggression being a very interesting topic and that it can stem from numerous origins. I would love for the pair of us to be able to get together and veiw Red Deer's dogs in their setting, and then be able to debate the situation with first hand info.

 

I look forward to future discussions with you.

 

Cheers Mate....NTTF

 

P.S. where did you study?

 

 

Red Deer:

 

I personally think that you have made the correct decission to place one of these two into a new home. It is going to eleviate alot of stress off of both you and the dogs. As Jeff has stated inform the new owner of your past problems, be upfront and honest, and explain why you are getting rid of the dog. Good Luck in selecting a new bitch and with your future training. Just remember keep an eye on the dog you are keeping, as he has shown aggression with one dog, he may very well show aggression with another or worse yet transfer it towards you.

 

Remember keep It FUN

 

Cheers ...NTTF

[Jeff B]

NTTF

 

I too have enjoyed the discussion regarding Red Deers problems, hopefully he will keep us informed as to the progress of both dogs if possible.

 

You’re right in that the environment has an impact on aggression but isn’t this is a modifying effect on what already exists. In saying 'all aggression is of genetic origin', all creatures have an inherent ability to aggress. Aggression is normal behaviour, it is part of the genetic survival kit we are born with. [i think the modern term is the hard wiring]. Surely it is the threshold/trigger for the release of the aggression that is influenced by the environment.

 

Anyway mate, when it comes to serious behavioural problems, as many viewpoints as possible is essential.

 

Jeff

 

Your PS. I have taken several courses over the years, attended seminars, read scores of books and papers etc. relating to canine psychology, some good and some not so good, all bloody expensive. My first passion is training, working, breeding, trialing and judging gundogs and, as I also teach others, some years ago I looked to the psychological side of canine behaviour initially to hopefully to make me a better trainer and develop a deeper understanding of the dogs. I got hooked on the subject and still am, for a while I operated a behavioural consultancy but eventually it got in the way of the gundog training etc., so I now only normally advise [with occasional exceptions] to those within the gundog fraternity I meet along the way.