Help needed on identifying proof mark

[JohnfromUK]

5 minutes ago, Diver One said:

Your turn

Unfortunately, I think I'm 'all out'. 

It has been a useful exercise for me as looking at your marks - and trying to compare with the Suhl marks on mine led me on to some research on mine (not to mention that I think we have both improved our close up photographic skills!)

I have also sourced and ordered myself a copy of "The Standard Directory of Proof Marks", something I had intended to do for some time and as so many things - put off for a rainy day and forgotten about.

According to my 4th Edition (1981) copy of "Notes on the Proof of Shotguns and Other Small Arms" (published by the UK Proof Houses), quote "There were German proof marks recognised in this country before 1939, but this recognition was cancelled on the outbreak of war.  Only those marks set down here are now acceptable in Great Britain.  Recognition was accorded in September 1955."

As I understand that any pre 1955 German proofed gun would have needed reproof in the UK to be legal to sell.  Also the marks shown in my booklet don't look much like the ones on my Suhl proofed gun which have a crown symbol above the letter not shown in the booklet.  That may account for why my gun also carries London proof, as even though Suhl proved in 1963, the marks are not as shown in the booklet.  I don't know who imported my gun.  Parker Hale were the agents for a long while I believe, but I would guess they would have probably used Birmingham.  Perhaps they used whoever was a faster turn round at the time.

What this whole exercise has shown is that this is a poorly documented area - and quite hard to fine definitive information, even in these internet days.  Proof marks can also be hard to recognise and even harder to photograph!

 

[wymberley]

9 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

Unfortunately, I think I'm 'all out'. 

It has been a useful exercise for me as looking at your marks - and trying to compare with the Suhl marks on mine led me on to some research on mine (not to mention that I think we have both improved our close up photographic skills!)

I have also sourced and ordered myself a copy of "The Standard Directory of Proof Marks", something I had intended to do for some time and as so many things - put off for a rainy day and forgotten about.

According to my 4th Edition (1981) copy of "Notes on the Proof of Shotguns and Other Small Arms" (published by the UK Proof Houses), quote "There were German proof marks recognised in this country before 1939, but this recognition was cancelled on the outbreak of war.  Only those marks set down here are now acceptable in Great Britain.  Recognition was accorded in September 1955."

As I understand that any pre 1955 German proofed gun would have needed reproof in the UK to be legal to sell.  Also the marks shown in my booklet don't look much like the ones on my Suhl proofed gun which have a crown symbol above the letter not shown in the booklet.  That may account for why my gun also carries London proof, as even though Suhl proved in 1963, the marks are not as shown in the booklet.  I don't know who imported my gun.  Parker Hale were the agents for a long while I believe, but I would guess they would have probably used Birmingham.  Perhaps they used whoever was a faster turn round at the time.

What this whole exercise has shown is that this is a poorly documented area - and quite hard to fine definitive information, even in these internet days.  Proof marks can also be hard to recognise and even harder to photograph!

 

Do you have the loose Addendum to the 1981 Notes - the problem is, 'loose'. A further slack handful of German proof marks pre 1939 were recognised by the UK in 1984 and include the 3 stamped on DO's gun - U,S and W under a crown. I don't know, but imagine that if the gun came into the UK prior to 1984 (without the 1955 marks) it would have required re-proof before being offered for sale. After 1st October of that year that requirement ceased. It's looking as though the re-proof could well be down to barrel work.

[JohnfromUK]

7 minutes ago, wymberley said:

Do you have the loose Addendum to the 1981 Notes - the problem is, 'loose'. A further slack handful of German proof marks pre 1939 were recognised by the UK in 1984 and include the 3 stamped on DO's gun - U,S and W under a crown. I don't know, but imagine that if the gun came into the UK prior to 1984 (without the 1955 marks) it would have required re-proof before being offered for sale. After 1st October of that year that requirement ceased. It's looking as though the re-proof could well be down to barrel work.

I do have 'a' loose single page addendum, but it only covers Finland.  Not sure when I bought my copy, but could easily have been before 1984.  My gun (the O/U I added to show the Suhl proof marks as the drawings I found on the internet were poor) was proved in London, but no date code (they weren't used by London up until '72 I think) and a further Birmingham proof when it was chamber sleeved, but the marks are so unclear I can't be certain of the date (before my ownership).  All I can really add - is that my gunmaker who looks after my guns (and didn't sell it to me!) was happy with all the proof marks when I ran it past him when I first bought the gun.

[wymberley]

1 minute ago, JohnfromUK said:

I do have 'a' loose single page addendum, but it only covers Finland.  Not sure when I bought my copy, but could easily have been before 1984.  My gun (the O/U I added to show the Suhl proof marks as the drawings I found on the internet were poor) was proved in London, but no date code (they weren't used by London up until '72 I think) and a further Birmingham proof when it was chamber sleeved, but the marks are so unclear I can't be certain of the date (before my ownership).  All I can really add - is that my gunmaker who looks after my guns (and didn't sell it to me!) was happy with all the proof marks when I ran it past him when I first bought the gun.

You could well be right. My page is a folded piece of A4. On one side is Finland and Germany on t'other.

[JohnfromUK]

4 minutes ago, wymberley said:

Germany on t'other.

Nothing on the back on mine.