wymberley Posted August 25 Report Share Posted August 25 I know that the current mark for the barrel bore and the chamber length is, say, '12-70' for a 12 bore with a 70mm chamber which is enclosed in an open oval with 'barbed' ends. I have this feeling that I can't shake off that the 410 may not actually say 410 but has some form of abbreviation perhaps. Could anyone kindly put me straight here? MTIA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enfieldspares Posted August 25 Report Share Posted August 25 https://www.hunting.be/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/Belgian-Proof-Marks.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted August 25 Author Report Share Posted August 25 27 minutes ago, enfieldspares said: https://www.hunting.be/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/Belgian-Proof-Marks.pdf Many thanks. Yep, have that and the mark in question is No. 33, showing 12 - 70. What I'm after is, is the mark for a 410 actually given as 410 or something else that equates to the 410. I'm have this feeling that I've seen something about this recently. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enfieldspares Posted August 25 Report Share Posted August 25 As in 14mm or "36" (as is headstamped on today's continental made .410" cases) perhaps? I'd may even send an email to the Proof House in Liege? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted August 25 Author Report Share Posted August 25 6 minutes ago, enfieldspares said: As in 14mm or "36" (as is headstamped on today's continental made .410" cases) perhaps? I'd may even send an email to the Proof House in Liege? Yep, or something akin to those - we're on the right track. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted August 27 Author Report Share Posted August 27 Eureka! Thank you. Andy H. On 25/08/2024 at 18:36, wymberley said: I'm have this feeling that I've seen something about this recently. It wasn't all that recently. 10 years ago you answered a question which I had asked purely out of interest at that time. This is what stuck in my mind but yet another senior moment meant that I got it all back to front. 410 it IS and 12m it WAS. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fil Posted August 27 Report Share Posted August 27 (edited) 2 hours ago, wymberley said: Eureka! Thank you. Andy H. It wasn't all that recently. 10 years ago you answered a question which I had asked purely out of interest at that time. This is what stuck in my mind but yet another senior moment meant that I got it all back to front. 410 it IS and 12m it WAS. Hi Yes. Old Belgian .410's had 12M over C in that horse shoe symbol. It is also black powder only as per your earlier post. I have several and my poachers folder is stamped up exactly that. My later one is stamped .410 over 65. Edited August 27 by Fil Added info Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted August 27 Author Report Share Posted August 27 46 minutes ago, Fil said: Hi Yes. Old Belgian .410's had 12M over C in that horse shoe symbol. It is also black powder only as per your earlier post. I have several and my poachers folder is stamped up exactly that. My later one is stamped .410 over 65. As I understand it the 'C' is for choke. If that is correct could you tell me assuming your first line details how would the chamber length be detailed, please? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fil Posted August 28 Report Share Posted August 28 21 hours ago, wymberley said: As I understand it the 'C' is for choke. If that is correct could you tell me assuming your first line details how would the chamber length be detailed, please? The C under 12MM is for chamber. (Sorry for the error in my earlier post where I stated 12M) That stamp is the designation for which cartridge the gun is chambered for. Not choke. They didn't put chamber depth on them in that era as London didn't either (pre 1925) The chamber depth in London was designated by the shot load stamped with the proof marks. IE: a twenty bore with a shot load stamped at 7/8ths would have been chambered at 2 1/2" (65mm) and a 20 bore with the stamp 1oz will have been chambered 2 3/4" (70mm) To avoid confusion they started stamping chamber depth after 1925. The Belgians did the same but in 1924. Incidently my pre 1924 .410 is chambered for 2 1/2. I can't prove it's not been deepened but it looks original to me as one can tell by "witnesses" if a chamber has had two different chamber reamers down it. There are lots of two inch folders floating about as well. If in doubt find a gunsmith/gunmaker that has an actual 410 chamber gauge. Hope this helps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted August 28 Author Report Share Posted August 28 12 minutes ago, Fil said: The C under 12MM is for chamber. (Sorry for the error in my earlier post where I stated 12M) That stamp is the designation for which cartridge the gun is chambered for. Not choke. They didn't put chamber depth on them in that era as London didn't either (pre 1925) The chamber depth in London was designated by the shot load stamped with the proof marks. IE: a twenty bore with a shot load stamped at 7/8ths would have been chambered at 2 1/2" (65mm) and a 20 bore with the stamp 1oz will have been chambered 2 3/4" (70mm) To avoid confusion they started stamping chamber depth after 1925. The Belgians did the same but in 1924. Incidently my pre 1924 .410 is chambered for 2 1/2. I can't prove it's not been deepened but it looks original to me as one can tell by "witnesses" if a chamber has had two different chamber reamers down it. There are lots of two inch folders floating about as well. If in doubt find a gunsmith/gunmaker that has an actual 410 chamber gauge. Hope this helps. Proper job, many thanks! I know where I'm at now and just have to wait for the better photo of what's in the final mark (the open oval) which I can't make out from the ones I have. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fil Posted August 28 Report Share Posted August 28 2 minutes ago, wymberley said: Proper job, many thanks! I know where I'm at now and just have to wait for the better photo of what's in the final mark (the open oval) which I can't make out from the ones I have. 👍 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted August 29 Author Report Share Posted August 29 On 28/08/2024 at 10:53, Fil said: On 28/08/2024 at 10:51, wymberley said: Proper job, many thanks! I know where I'm at now and just have to wait for the better photo of what's in the final mark (the open oval) which I can't make out from the ones I have. I have had a reply and with a better photo' the proof mark clearly shows '410 65' in an open oval. It was already known that the black powder proof was not in doubt. There is a thread from July 21st tiled Belgian 410 further down this page which may be of interest. Similarly, there is another titled RFD Burton-On Trent from July 1st in General Shooting. Nuff said. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fil Posted August 29 Report Share Posted August 29 1 hour ago, wymberley said: Ah. Right 65mm chamber it is then. Yes It is making sense now. I'll take a look at the other post. Cheers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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