for those that haven't seen it

[Fisherman Mike]

Im not a party pooper, far from it, I admire Tommys skill with a gun...............all I would say is that if one of my colleagues at the BTO saw that video they would have a field day..........and if my FA liason officer saw it I wouldnt expect to get my licence renewed...............

 

If Tom has removed the video good for him.

 

FM

[Cranfield]

The whole subject of shooting woodpigeon under the General Licence is shrouded in mist and confusion.

Nobody, including Defra, is that interested in clarifiying the situation, as it would all sound ridiculous.

 

Can I shoot a woodpigeon eating crops ?---- thats OK.

Can I shoot a woodpigeon flying over crops ?---- Mmmm not sure ?

Can I shoot a woodpigeon sitting in a tree looking at crops ?---- Mmmm another dodgy issue.

Can I shoot a woodpigeon in my garden that is thinking about eating crops ?---- Really not sure about that one.

Can I shoot a woodpigeon going to its roost after its been eating crops ?---- Second opinion needed definitely.

Can I shoot a woodpigeon that is sitting on a non food crop, that might be thinking of eating a food crop, or may have just eaten a food crop ?---- A Committee decision required on this one.

 

The whole situation is a joke.

 

The common denominator is the woodpigeon, it is a menace to agricultural crops which nobody cares to deny, which is why its on the General Licence.

It is a menace to agricultural crops 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, for the whole of its life.

In my view that makes it a target for the whole of that time, as long as the shot is safe and all other aspects are lawful.

 

Sorry Mike, but on this one we have to agree to disagree.

[Fisherman Mike]

I agree the situation is a joke.......But the law is infact very clear.

 

If Tommy had been legitimately protecting crops then this would have been a different matter.

 

I saw no crops in the video and he could quite easily have stood up and waved his arms around to scare the bird off.

 

When will we realise that we do not have a licence just to go around shooting pigeon willy nilly, which is patently illegal.

 

The following extracts from the Countryside & Wildlfe act explain precisely the rules. However 95% of us refuse to recognise them as they are an invasion on our sport.

 

Tommy is not an irresponsible shooter per say but the video wont do our credibility any good what so ever in the eyes of the ignorant public.

 

Cheers FM

 

Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981 (as amended)

 

Licence to kill or take certain birds

to prevent serious damage or disease

 

Guidance Note: The licence permits authorised persons (commonly landowners

and occupiers – see note j ) to carry out a range of activities against birds of the

species listed. This licence may only be relied upon where the activities are

carried out for the purposes of preventing the spread of disease or preventing

serious damage to livestock, crops, foodstuffs for livestock, crops, vegetables,

fruit, growing timber, fisheries or inland waters. This licence does not permit

action to prevent damage to other forms of property or to prevent nuisance.

Persons relying on this licence must be satisfied that non-lethal methods of

resolving the problem are ineffective or impracticable. Users must comply with

the terms and conditions; Notes are provided as further guidance and advice on

best practice.

 

 

Natural England, in exercise of the powers conferred by Section 16 (1)(j) and section 16(5) of the Wildlife

and Countryside Act 1981 (as amended) (‘the Act’), and being satisfied that as regards the purpose set

out at paragraph 1 that there is no other satisfactory solution, hereby grants the following licence:

 

LICENCE

 

1. The purposes for which this licence is granted are preventing the spread of disease and preventing

serious damage to livestock, foodstuffs for livestock, crops, vegetables, fruit, growing timber, fisheries

or inland waters.

2. Subject to the terms and conditions below, and for the purposes set out in paragraph (1) above, this

licence permits:

(i) any authorised person to kill or take any of the wild birds listed in this subparagraph, to take,

damage or destroy their nests or to take or destroy their eggs:

Greater Canada Goose Branta canadensis

Crow Corvus corone

Dove, Collared Streptopelia decaocto

Gull, Great Black-backed Larus marinus

Gull, Lesser Black-backed Larus fuscus

Gull, Herring Larus argentatus

Jackdaw Corvus monedula

Jay Garrulus glandarius

Magpie Pica pica

Pigeon, Feral Columba livia

Rook Corvus frugilegus

Woodpigeon Columba palumbus

 

(ii) the use of a semi-automatic weapon by authorised persons acting under subparagraph (2)(i)

above;

(iii) the use of a cage trap, the dimensions of which do not satisfy the requirements of section 8(1) of

the Act, by authorised persons acting under subparagraph (2)(i) above;

(iv) in relation to the killing or taking of Feral Pigeon (Columba livia) only:

(a)the use of any device for illuminating a target or any sighting device for night shooting, by

authorised persons acting under subparagraph (2)(i) above;

(b)the use of any form of artificial lighting or any mirror or other dazzling device, by authorised

 

WML Gen-L05 (12/07)

 

 

persons acting under subparagraph (2)(i) above;

 

(v) the use, by authorised persons acting under subparagraph (2)(i) above, of any net, except the use

of any net for taking birds in flight or the use for taking birds on the ground of any net which is

projected or propelled otherwise than by hand.

3. Failure to act within the purpose of this licence as set out in paragraph 1 or failure to comply with the

terms and conditions below may mean that the licence cannot be relied upon and an offence could

therefore be committed. The maximum penalty available for an offence under the Act is, at the time

of the issue of this licence, a level 5 fine (£5000) and/or a six month custodial sentence. TERMS AND CONDITIONS

 

4. Except as specifically permitted under paragraph (2) above, this licence does not authorise the use of

any method of killing or taking which is prohibited by section 5 or section 8 of the Act.

5. This licence can only be relied on in circumstances where the authorised person is satisfied that

appropriate non-lethal methods of control such as scaring are either ineffective or impracticable. 6. Where any cage trap, including a trap authorised under subparagraph (2)(iii) above is used, then only

the bird species listed in this paragraph may be used as decoys. Such decoy birds must be provided

with adequate food, water, appropriate shelter and a perch for the entire period during which it is

used:

[Cranfield]

The pigeon in the video was clearly eating clover, a crop nurtured by the farmer as feed for his sheep.

That is the reason it was shot.

 

There is nothing in the Act that states the bird has to be in the act of spreading disease or seriously damaging livestock, crops, foodstuffs for livestock, crops, vegetables, fruit, growing timber, fisheries or inland waters, when you shoot it.

 

The interpretation of the pertinent clauses noted below, is totally at the discretion of the shooter in a real time situation.

 

"Persons relying on this licence must be satisfied that non-lethal methods of

resolving the problem are ineffective or impracticable."

 

"This licence can only be relied on in circumstances where the authorised person is satisfied that

appropriate non-lethal methods of control such as scaring are either ineffective or impracticable."

 

This makes it impossible for a third party to claim that the shooting was against the intentions of the Act, as they were not present at the time the decision was made and do not possess the relevant information upon which to base their opinion.

[Fisherman Mike]

The pigeon in the video was clearly eating clover, a crop nurtured by the farmer as feed for his sheep.

That is the reason it was shot.

 

youre clutching at straws now

 

This makes it impossible for a third party to claim that the shooting was against the intentions of the Act, as they were not present at the time the decision was made and do not possess the relevant information upon which to base their opinion.

 

The video in question is pretty conclusive evidence dont you think ?

 

I rest my case.

 

FM

[Suffolk shooter]

Just to add my tup'penth. I think you'll find that the video was done before the change in the general license wording, as although I cannot at present view the video (Link says removed by provider), the EE post referring to the pigeon and the fact that an argument has ensued about it, leads me to think this was originally posted on here end of 06 beginning of 07 originally?

 

Granted can't knock Tommy's ability with the rifle at incredible ranges, but is it necessary to shoot a wood pigeon at that distance with such a large calibre weapon. Listed as vermin or not, not very sporting IMHO. Waits for incoming flak as previous...................

 

SS

[DaveK]

Can't see where the problem lies

 

The pigeon in question was obviously a stunt double and a member of equity or NPPC or something. :blink:

 

Did anyone think to interview the pigeon for a first hand account of the proceedings?

Edited April 26, 2008 by DaveK

[markbivvy]

Listed as vermin or not, not very sporting IMHO.

 

SS

 

 

so how would you explain it to defra/English nature that you only shoot pigeons that offer sporting shots, yet still be controlling them under the general license.

 

if a fox had been into your birds and was having a sleep under the nearest bush

would you give it best as its not a sporting shot.

[Suffolk shooter]

so how would you explain it to defra/English nature that you only shoot pigeons that offer sporting shots, yet still be controlling them under the general license.

 

if a fox had been into your birds and was having a sleep under the nearest bush

would you give it best as its not a sporting shot.

 

Mark as I said IMHO. Lets not cloud the issue between Fox and Pigeon. it would be like shooting Duck on a pond with the pigeon being on the ground, Nobody would think that was sporting so whats the difference, and why would I explain anything to English nature. After all, all other Non lethal options have been explored before shooting begins.

 

SS

[markbivvy]

so how would you explain it to defra/English nature that you only shoot pigeons that offer sporting shots, yet still be controlling them under the general license.

 

if a fox had been into your birds and was having a sleep under the nearest bush

would you give it best as its not a sporting shot.

 

Mark as I said IMHO. Lets not cloud the issue between Fox and Pigeon. it would be like shooting Duck on a pond with the pigeon being on the ground, Nobody would think that was sporting so whats the difference, and why would I explain anything to English nature. After all, all other Non lethal options have been explored before shooting begins.

 

SS

 

 

hi ss,

i know what you mean, but one mans sporting can be very different.

eg, ducks on ponds not sporting, some punt gunners think it is.

see what i mean.

some foxes i have shot are nothing like sporting, but its a job we do.

nothing sporting about shooting rabbits on the lamp, but i dont tell other shooters that.

live and let live,sure the antis can find there own trouble to cause with out us pointing them in the direction.

all the best mate.

[Suffolk shooter]

hi ss,

i know what you mean, but one mans sporting can be very different.

eg, ducks on ponds not sporting, some punt gunners think it is.

see what i mean.

 

I hadn't even considered that Mark, well pointed out Not on a pond I hasten to add, well I hope not.

 

Hmm, justification in the old days I suppose was it was done for income purposes when there used to be groups of Punt gunners going out to hit huge flocks of Brent or whatever, but these days, putgunning a dying art, I suppose a historical, and skilled art more than a practical thing. Bit like shooting pigeons at range with a large calibre rifle, so there we go a circular arguement.

 

SS

[jbarry]

Hi tommy. seen the vids a while back and was just wondering what make/model rifle you were using?

If anyone else knows i'd appreciate it.

Cheers.

[deejay]

Hi there TT could it be possible to have the title changed now from those that havn't seen to those that aint gonna see

 

 

shame i know sounds like a good shot