Stalker_2

BRF you insist on posting insults and nothing else. :( I take it therefore that because you are unable to put together a coherent counter point without resorting to such tactics you are unable to. That indicates to me that to try to continue to have any type of meaningful exchange with you is probably pointless. Nevertheless, I may be all the things you say…and more, but that’s the first time I’ve been called pompous. I may be willing to put my point across…but isn’t that the whole point of a forum? You on the other hand are beginning to appear as a boorish clown and I’d like to believe that’s not who you are either. FWIW my comment regarding tweeds was tongue in cheek…my dismay was because I have to buy them and they don’t come cheap. Perhaps next time I’ll use emoticons B) Your comments regarding my background are also wrong, try a Hampshire/Wiltshire sheep farm. Getting back to paying for our sport. There are professional pigeon shooters who post on this forum and they charge for shooting days. I see nothing wrong in that and if the majority of shooters believed that they wouldn’t be in business today. I intend to avail myself of their services at some point, if for no other reason than to witness how the masters do it. Additionally we seem to be getting plenty of uptakes for a day’s pigeon shooting. A father and son can have a great day out for less than what some spend on a single evening down the local pup. The good thing for them is they only pay for what they want and when it suites them. They then get access to land that would otherwise be unavailable to them. Farmers who let the pigeon control for free tend to end up with one or two regular shooters and everyone else in the area loses out. Digger you asked advice regarding shooting near pens. I merely highlighted that there could be potentially more serious consequences than you might imagine…depending on what type of contract the syndicate has with the land owner. I’m unsure what you mean by I keep going away. I assume that you mean I don’t start slinging insults when others do it to me over something they believe I have written. In the wake of any perceived insult I walk away until I can reply with a considered measured response like a normal well adjusted adult. Cheers S_2

Well thanks for the considered responses chaps, so much vitriol and so little comprehension. I understand how difficult it is to discern the true tone of any post so I’ll try to clarify…but then again I might have it wrong and just appear patronising again. :( Yes it’s true I did arrive here seeking the going rate for pigeon shooting. I now know this. I also know that for some strange reason some pigeon shooters believe they shouldn’t have to pay for their chosen sport like the majority of the UK population. It’s true I didn’t shoot any type of shotgun for 15 years before I discovered pigeon shooting. Thanks to this forum I do now…and love it. Before then I used to pay for clay pigeon shooting along with everyone else. We as a shooting fraternity wanted more people in our sport to help safeguard it from the anti’s. The down side is that because of the increase in shooters that for every bit of land available there are probably hundreds of shooters trying to gain access. That creates a fierce competition where once the farmer was lucky to get any one to turn up to shoot the vermin FOC. I don’t claim to be an expert at anything but I have been shooting for many years and if someone asks something that I know the answer to I am not ashamed to answer them if the question is asked. If some on this forum like to play ignorant and not answer a question that’s their prerogative. As to my attitude to shooting sports? My chosen sport is deer stalking and by that I mean “management” and not merely killing a deer because it’s in front of my rifle. I’d much rather see a gold medal head attached to a live beast in the field than on any wall. I like 99% of stalkers pay for the privilege. By my arithmetic it costs me £100 for every deer I cull if I keep the carcasses. It would cost considerably more if I wanted to travel to Scotland to do it, now that I have relinquished those rights. I live about 1 hour from London. There are shooters in London who can write a cheque for £20,000 for stalking without batting an eyelid and then not even bother turning up. I can’t even begin to compete with that. I have to offer the landowner something they can’t…a service that makes me indispensable to the farm. You name I do it…for free. Now the entire farming family trust me. This led them to ask me to set up and run a shoot so that they can maximise the returns on the land even though I don’t shoot pheasants and have no intention to. That led to my original query regarding pigeon shooting rates. The idiot who had the rough shooting rights for twenty years previously squandered the privilege. His shooters alienated the village and were rude to the landowners…and they were paying peanuts. So far starting this January I have worked clearing three woods for pens. That entailed felling some 400 or so trees…some giant 4 foot diameter part fallen Beech and Chestnut trees. That took a couple of months to do fitting in with the day job. I’ve erected three very large release pens with the help of a chap who knows about these things. I finished plumbing them in today…the pheasants arrive next week. The cover crop is in place and growing nicely. The guns are mostly sold with just a few to go. Then we have to lay on 18 days of testing pheasants for the syndicates and try not to poison them with the catering. If we don’t get it right I along with my partner are looking at refunds all round…and I don’t even shoot the bloody things. To add insult to injury I’ve even got to wear tweeds on shoot day!!! Next year we might make a profit…my cut is likely to be £7000. That’s £3500 for each years work…but it will pay for my chosen sport, just. My other chosen sports also require me to pay…like doing a track day and getting my knee down on a circuit and preying I don’t chuck my toy into the kitty litter, or diving any one of the thousands of wrecks around our coasts. Paying for your chosen sport has been a fact of life for millions of sports men and women in the UK for many many years, why not pigeon shooting? So that’s my attitude chaps. I will go the extra mile or two and I will work like a slave for the privilege. I will not apologise for this or sit on my **** and complain that I can’t get shooting for free. And since I am at financial risk if this goes wrong, I reserve the right to do whatever I have to to prevent me from losing my house including court action as a last resort. To finish this rather long post I would point out that the comment regarding livelihood was in quotation marks, and were the farmer’s comments, not mine. Cheers S_2

I didn’t see the edited responses to my post but I can imagine what they were. I’m sorry if stating what the reality of the situation is today upsets some shooters, but times are changing whether we like it or not. To put things into perspective my local landowner discovered that they were losing money on the organic pigs. They got rid of them. I was approached and asked to set up and run a shoot. The money involved is simply staggering. We will hopefully be breaking even this year and turning a small profit next year. Because the farmer gets paid for every service he provides…be it machinery hire, sowing cover crops and putting aside the land for that and the exclusive shooting rights on the land he has increased his income from shooting by 600% and offset the loss of the pigs. That is good for him and his farm, but bad for shooters who used to shoot for free…but as he says, “If there’s a choice between my livelihood and your sport guess who wins”? The down side to the above is that it establishes a priority order for those with financial or contractual obligations. Unfortunately pigeon shooters shooting for free don’t even show up on the list. We deal with the pigeon problem via let days to supplement the shoot income and deal with the short notice trouble spots with either syndicate guns or ourselves. IMHO the days of getting free shooting are rapidly coming to an end as more farmers feel the financial squeeze. Those who are lucky enough to have it at the moment should enjoy it to the full and move Heaven and Earth to keep it for as long as you can. Cheers S_2

I’ve recently got back into shot gunning after about 15 years away. I have the very same gun for pigeons (391) it took me 3 attempts with the spacers to find the right stock adjustment for me to get the gun to shoot where I look. It took further work at a pattern plate to find a choke that would throw the 32grm of #5’s I use for pigeon work without large gaps in the pattern. I shot two days ago to confirm my choices and had a very good day over stubble with birds as close as 15yds and out to 45yds. I’m happy to say I won’t be changing anything from now on. :( B) Perhaps a bit of the same work would help you? Cheers S_2

IMHO, it depends on what you mean by accurate? I use a ballistic program for long range shooting with my rifles and I kid you not I shoot rabbits in the head at 350yds and have the ability to kill vermin at longer ranges if required. That takes a lot of work at the reloading bench, a lot of testing over a pair of chronographs and an understanding of the pitfalls and shortcomings of the software. Generally speaking the information given for factory ammo isn’t worth the paper it’s printed on. Every rifle will have different characteristics for coefficients and different sight heights and you need atmospheric data to produce an accurate chart to kill humanely at distance… you have to be precise. This type of info is not available for generic ballistics and while it does give you some idea it quickly becomes garbage at longer ranges. Cheers S_2

I’m surprised the game syndicate hasn’t got that issue all sown up legally…I have. FWIW, down in the South pigeon shooters pay for the privilege and the income helps pay for the sporting rights that cost many thousands of pounds. I’m surprised that the farmer is willing to jeopardise that kind of income…I know mine sends every request for shooting my way and I make the decision. Since the shoots can cost the price of some houses to run, I know what takes precedence for me and I think it would be wise for some to remember that. If my shoot was ruined because of some action of a third party and I was faced with a refund bill for around £60,000, you had better believe I’d be coming after you in the courts. Cheers all S_2

Ahh, the penny drops. Cheers S_2

That’s a lot of info guys and a great help. I tried to use a choke gauge but just confused myself. I never knew there were so many choke sizes. I’ve now been onto the Teague site and found this that explains it all in a language I understand...I think Cheers S_2

Ok deadeye I’ll do just that thanks. JRDS sorry but I’m not sure exactly what a 1/4 external Teague is, is it a choke that you can buy separately rather than one of the fistful that comes with the gun? Cheers S_2

Thanks for that deadeye. I christened it yesterday afternoon and I am very pleased with my choice…with the help of a certain knowledgeable young shooter on this forum. I’m glad you described the problem area in detail since in my genuine ignorance I just call it “the screwy bit on the end” This has got me a few sideways glances from other experienced shot gunners…but its worth it to see how nervous they get when I start to take a shot. Now for a bit of thread creep. Do you strip your gun after every outing or do you just pull the barrel through and lightly oil? Is grease the best lube for the working parts or Tri Flow? Cheers S_2

Thanks for the pointers Nick. I’ve picked up a new AL391 at a good price. It fits me and I can remove the magazine plug and put it on my FAC. I think I’ll try half choke since that what the experienced shooters use. I know what you mean regarding recoil, but as with everything it’s all give and take. Cheers S_2

Unfortunately Highlander you don’t seem to understand how it is. I used to shoot practical pistol…lawfully. I don’t any more, why? Our sport is under threat from a minority purporting to be the majority. There are over 60 million souls living in the UK, how many of them shoot? If the antis become the majority and decide that you have to take up knitting and a law is passed, then that’s what will happen. The antis along with the media love to demonise what they consider to be a barbaric pastime for potential mass murderers. Of course they never saw how the lamb chop on their dinner plate got there…they don’t want to. The truth has no place on their agenda and that gives them the advantage from the outset. It doesn’t help our sport if we give them yet more ammo like that recently posted. It does foster ill will against our sport. It made me want to remove those people’s firearms and I love shooting. Make no mistake; those against us are in this for the long run. They dedicate their lives to this. They are in the schools and on the university campuses grooming the kids to be the antis for tomorrow. We as a sport are not. When I asked a saboteur why he was at a pheasant shoot the reply was “£40 a day and a packed lunch mate”…that fact was not reported by the media. The media has changed my working life recently by sensationalist reporting. Anyone who underestimates the power these people have is a damn fool and the anti’s best asset. S_2

Dammit, I got bitten yesterday and now it’s going to cost me. I borrowed a scatter gun and went pigeon shooting with a mate. The place was alive with them and they never stopped coming in…I can’t remember when I had so much fun with my clothes on. Anyway now I’m hooked I’ve got to get a good pigeon gun. I need advice since it’s a long time since I had one…and then it was mainly clays I shot. My mate was using a semi, which I have to say seemed easier to re-load in the confines of the hide when compared to the U/O I was using…of course it was probably was just me. :*) What barrel length and type of gun do you pigeon shooters go for? What are the pro’s and cons of the semi against the O/U? Can anyone recommend a good semi auto or O/U that won’t cost a fortune? Many thanks. Cheers all S_2

Are you really saying you know the history of all cats in your traps? I can barley recognise my own when he’s out hunting at night, so you must have a fantastic memory. What you are doing is not so much controversial as possibly illegal. No matter how passionately you feel about it, it won’t change. The fact that you catch more cats than foxes only means you set the traps in such a manner that cats are more likely to get caught rather than foxes. Add the fact that some people steal cats and dump them out of malice only adds to the injustice of it. I accept cats kill birds; they also kill rats and rabbits. I watched a recent program filmed in Australia regarding the damage feral cats were doing in a reserve for a small kangaroo type animal. A cat expert was consulted and brought in to eradicate the pests. Our hero used a call to entice and then trap the problem animals. They were dispatched with a bullet and cut open to reveal the contents of their stomachs. All but one cat had fed on rabbits or rats; the odd one out had a lizard of some description among the rat remains in its stomach. Our expert was hard pressed to explain the lack of damming evidence. The park official also failed to recognise the significance of the tracks left by the off-road trial bikes that crisscrossed the area from weekend riders etc. We humans seem very keen to place the blame for a species demise at any doorstep except where it belongs…ours. I’m not saying that cats should not be controlled where necessary; it’s just not as necessary as some groups would have you believe. Who says that the native wild cat in Scotland is pure? When domestic cats arrived in these Islands around the time of the Romans did we have a genetic data base to show a pure strain? Are we saying that the cats the Romans arrived with, never had a chance to breed with the native wildcat? At what point in history and evolution are we trying to preserve? Is it the right one and who says so? We humans needed cats when we lived in huts and carried spears etc. We wanted them to protect our grain stores from rodents. This helped keep us alive through the harsh winters and in some countries the value of a cat was such that if you killed one you received the death penalty. Again if there is a problem with cats then it’s our entire fault and not the cats. Today the government could do some useful like making it a legal requirement for all cats to be neutered or licensed to breed. That would push the price up and the numbers would decline…but we humans have to do it, not the cats. Since we have some serious thread creep here I suppose we’d better stop now or start our own thread on the subject. Cheers S_2 henry d where did your post go? This post doesn't make sense without yours.

Of course you wouldn’t, because if you did you’d be breaking the law, but that can go both ways. An acquaintance of mine turned up on my doorstep one night in tears. His cat was in his arms. She had been shot in the head by a pellet gun. She was alive so we rushed her to the vets. She lived although she lost an eye. The reason the owner came to me was because he was a biker and didn’t have a car. It seems that his next door neighbour had a pellet gun and had openly boasted that he shot at cats for fun. Several had been hurt over a few months. A week later he got a visit from a few blokes wearing full faced crash helmets. They broke his arm and smashed his jaw. He spent an uncomfortable time in hospital. Funnily enough there were no witnesses and my acquaintance was sitting watching the TV with his wife when all this unpleasantness occurred. The police never found the attackers but there have been no other cats shot in our area to date. I would never advocate this course of action, but humans can get fairly emotional with regard to their pets. Anyway to continue, the law is fairly specific about this. From the BASC web site Domestic cats and dogs can be classed as property under the Theft and Criminal Damage Acts or equivalent legislation in Scotland and consequently it could be an offence to set traps intentionally or recklessly to kill or injure these or other domestic animals. Feral cats The domestic cat and feral cat is one and the same animal - Felis catus. The family pet is classed as the personal property of its owner and any unjustified control may lead to prosecution. Although the cat's owner cannot be held liable for its actions, they could sue for damages should their cat come to any harm or go missing. Cheers S_2

It’s when I read some of the responses from some of my fellow “fit persons” that I despair. I understand that some are posted tongue in cheek, but this is a public forum. The human race is responsible for the demise of more animal species on this planet than all other creatures put together. To blame domestic cats for the song bird populations demise is selective to say the least. Try returning the lost habitat to the wild…it’s under the bricks and mortar we keep laying down every time we spot a green field. If we were all free to act how we wanted towards others animals, then there would be no dogs in my area at all. Being smelly stupid animals that they are they would have a tragic accident wherever I met one ...but I know many of you love them, so how about we live and let live? The cat and the HH issue will be resolved in time…the cat will learn or it will die. I’d put money on it learning. It’s a pity the same cannot be said for the owner…but that’s typical of the species. Cheers S_2

That’s very true Dave…but the helicopter can stand off and follow the bike at its leisure after it gets a lock with the FLIR pod and there’s nothing the biker can do about it. The biker would have to be Rossi or lucky to escape, and we know he’s not lucky since the Feds are on his tail. Cheers S_2

Sorry mate the Agusta 109E will do 198mph at sea level and can take the direct route when it's doing it. It's not only a very capable machine but has good aerobatic qualities to add to the grin factor. All police helicopters can and do transit or operate in all classes of airspace. The only thing that happens is you get a warning from the tower as you descend on the ILS and you might get a TCAS warning. Cheers S_2

Cranfield the relevant law is the human rights act 1998. As for my reasons being just my personal opinion…true. But I hardly think that my opinion will affect you or your privacy. On the contrary you and your ideas will affect mine. You like many of the pro lobby don’t have any compelling arguments for your position…if you had you would have posted them already. Some (not all) of the information we talk about is on a database somewhere true. But which one, and where? Even if a criminal stumbles upon it, it won’t contain everything about me so the damage will in all likelihood be very limited and easily put right. If on the other hand this new database gets hacked or the information stolen then may the gods help those that get picked for identity theft. The old adage of all your eggs in one basket would seem appropriate here. I let your plea of omitting the Nazis as an example slide, but I will now say this. It’s wise to remember that those who fail to learn from history are destined to repeat the same mistakes as our forefathers…I personally don’t need the lessons…how about you? I like every other living soul on this planet (despite what some claim) cannot see into the future…we have managed to avoid the fate that has befallen so many civilised societies around the globe. We did this without an ID card/national database and a strong willed electorate who have the power to grab the establishment by the collective b*lls when the need arises. We have handed over many rights to the establishment already and this is just one more. All started in the name of security, where does it stop? Cheers S_2 Ps I’m still waiting for your details…you have nothing to fear.

Cranfield, I take it that since you have not responded with any valid reasons for allowing the government to demand my personal data you don’t have a valid argument…which has been the case all along. Those that support this deserve everything they get…they probably never had to stand up and fight for the freedoms they so readily give away. One thing that most of us in this country agree on is that the vast majority of politicians are corrupt lying bast**ds. The Iraq war fiasco and the Dr Kelly abomination demonstrates how low these lying scumbags will go to further their ambition. But then god help us the Sun reading (if that’s possible) Big Brother watching cerebrally challenged morons among us allow those same people to get all our valuable personal information onto one data base on the pretext that its for our own good… and pay for it into the bargain. When asked why? …a tired old phrase of “you have nothing to fear” is trotted out….um hello…Earth calling! Anyway unlike the pro ID card lot, here are some valid reasons for not having it. •Because I’m a free person living in a free society. I and many others fought to maintain those freedoms…and they are not to be given away lightly if ever. •The government are allowed to govern at society’s pleasure. They are not our lords and masters…they are the electorates servants and answer to us…not the other way around. •Security is not enhanced by a database…in fact my security is actually weakened because it can be abused more easily. •I do not have to prove my innocence in the UK…they have to prove my guilt and I don’t have to help them. •I have a right to privacy and that is enshrined in law. See below. Article 6 Right to liberty and security Everyone has the right to liberty and security of person. Article 7 Respect for private and family life Everyone has the right to respect for his or her private and family life, home and communications. Article 8 Protection of personal data 1. Everyone has the right to the protection of personal data concerning him or her. 2. Such data must be processed fairly for specified purposes and on the basis of the consent of the person concerned or some other legitimate basis laid down by law. Everyone has the right of access to data which has been collected concerning him or her, and the right to have it rectified. 3. Compliance with these rules shall be subject to control by an independent authority. They of course opted out to get this through…how convenient for them. S_2

the last engineer, I’d have to deny being into conspiracy theories. I just want to be presented with a valid reason why the state wants my private and personal information on a database without any reasonable suspicions about me being a criminal or threat to national security. I would suggest that the state is being paranoid…if a state can be. Why do we have to have a replacement for an ID card? The whole point is that we don’t need one in the first place…let alone being charged for it to the tune of £80 and then having to carry it at all times (this will happen) and pay for information updates if we move house etc or get fined if we don’t. Yes you could find the information as you said…but that would take time and effort. That kind of activity is therefore restricted to enquiries that are part of an investigation…remember the danger of having a new tool is the tendency to generate uses to justify its existence. Attitude adjustments still occur today. Although it usually takes the form of “robust arresting techniques” The mental processes that lead miscreants to believe they can win by fighting a carrier full of tooled up police officers is astounding…yet strangely amusing. old rooster. Some very good points…and I agree completely that they should be made to pay the policing costs…along with the clubs and pubs that serve them when they are obviously under the influence and still drinking. This can happen and does happen for the businesses, but IMHO not by any significant amount considering the takings of some of these establishments over a weekend. The number of arresting officers is open to debate and I would say in defence that when they get a shout it might be just one or two idiots, but that can quickly escalate into many more the moment the police arrive on scene. Not forgetting that some citizens consider it a sport to lure the police into an ambush and administer a good kicking or worse. :< Cheers S_2

It takes around three or four police officers to subdue a drunk because that way the drunk can be controlled without injury to either party. If one police officer had to do the job the casualty wards would be over run on a Friday night and the public would be up in arms. S_2

Ok, I give up. If I have nothing to fear by carrying a photo ID (I do carry one but that has no genetic info embedded) Why will the criminals be prevented from committing crimes by having one? Any one heard of a fake passport? Don’t some of our government security services use them? I suppose counterfeit money is a mere figment of my imagination as well. Everything that has been said about being monitored by many means is irrelevant. This info is not collated and stored on a government data base. In fact the majority is not readily available to any security agency unless they go and find it and then it will have been destroyed if a few months have elapsed. I object to my personal details being readily available to any agency and their staff whether they need the info or not. I hope that they don’t have any criminals amongst them; because identity theft is one of the fastest growing crimes today. But of course the criminal element won’t try to infiltrate the DHSS or whatever because the new demand for fake ID’s wouldn’t make it worth their efforts…or would it? Here’s a little challenge for all you ID card supporters. Send me by PM all your personal information…name address, phone numbers, bank details, car registration info. I want all your medical details as well…oh and while I’m at it I’d like a DNA profile and a recent photo. Don’t worry I have a higher security clearance than most of the staff at the agencies who will have automatic access to this…so you have nothing to fear. Cheers S_2

It has always been so. Just as its only an offence to have a weapon in a public place "without a reasonable excuse" I would argue that crossing a minor road to get to another part of your land is a reasonable excuse, and I act accordingly. :unsure: Cheers S_2

This is what Avon and Sommerset Constabulary have put on their web site. I suppose the hardest thing to prove is the 50' from the centre bit. If you say you were 51' there is no offence, but you have to be able to determin the centre of the footpath. :unsure: Cheers S_2