wymberley
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Posts posted by wymberley
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3 hours ago, Vince Green said:
It's a good way of making a lot of Sunday morning clay shooters think "I'm not going to pay that and jack it in.
Isn't disarming the population one of the tenants of the communist manifesto?
This was one of the 10 points detailed on a propaganda poster issued as a warning during the cold war and which detailed the requirements to render a country ripe for rebellion and thus a takeover by a communist regime.
Devon and Cornwall Constabulary aided and abetted by the Police Crime Commissioner have a different system. They just take so long to process applications that you just quietly give up and go away.
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Yes, it does.
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9 minutes ago, johnphilip said:
It's better if they have both incase one goes down , sometimes up here in Scotland when it's a bit windy. It moves the dish a little I loose signal I then switch TV to freeview. Using the tv ariel From freesat I prefer freesat as there is more channels on it
Cheers. That's the sort of reason I'm asking - outside internet fibre optic going down too often for my liking.
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Help, please.
I'm trying to tidy up the usual nest of worms before the new TV arrives. Could anyone tell me if the 2023 Panasonic OLED Smart Android TV has the terrestrial aerial and satellite dish connections. If so I'll use them but if not that's more cable to get shot of.
Many thanks.
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10 hours ago, Bernard said:
I wasn’t doing any sums. I was just punching numbers into KPY. Yours might be with an ISA standard atmosphere.
The penetration is really a function of velocity and our figures for that are close. Those for recoil energy are in a different ballpark and relate to all of the ejecta which I didn't take into account. Factor in the weight of the wads and powder and anything else in addition to the shot which may whizz out of the barrel and our discrepancy will reduce.
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1 hour ago, muncher said:
I wasn’t far off, but you have verified my point, thank you.
Better than you thought but it does depend on who you listen to/read.
I'd go for 709 and 4.25 but 4.06 if you add in a boundary layer for the 1500.
Similarly, 678 and 3.03 but 2.87 if you add in a boundary layer for the 1300.
The difference in the 42 yard velocity is just 31.
For the recoil, I make the velocity for 1500/1300 as 15.13/13.12 ft/sec and for the energy 24.9 and 18.73 ftlbs.
Except for the recoil, all is much the same with no real difference in performance.
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19 hours ago, rbrowning2 said:
it this case it just the weight of the shot in Kg, so for a 32gm cartridge the momentum for example would be
Ns = velocity in m/s x 32. e,g 430x0.032 = 13.76 Ns
CIP uses the velocity at 2.5 meters to determine the momentum.
Which looks like I previously made an error when I got 13.44 in the earlier post, which therefore must mean wymberley V1 is at 1 meter otherwise if at 2.5meter 13.76Ns would be over the 13.5 that CIP allows 12/70 HP and gamebore would not do that.
So from that you can deduce that they are doing nearly 422 m/s at 2.5 meters. (13.5/0.032)
Can't be precise owing to (minor) discrepancies in shot size but nearer to 400 m/s. Academic really as more to the point if you go with the generally recognised (lead) pellet 1.5ftlb energy requirement to cleanly kill a cock pheasant, then in this instance the max' range would be some 55 yards.
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30 minutes ago, rbrowning2 said:
the V1 could be at 1 meter as then at V2.5 certainly within CIP regulations and the V1 velocity looks good being faster than V2.5 and marketing strategy has been such that speed sells. Only way to be certain would be to ask gamebore.
Thank you.
They'd simply just mark their own homework and you'd just get a load of nonsense. As per the shot size packaging, it'll continue to be anybody's guess. Come the NTS day as shooters by and large are an apathetic bunch we'll have done nothing about it and it's going to be a riot with the only beneficiaries being the loaders. What is needed is legislation to ensure that we're all on the same hymn sheet before then so that we all can be as sure as possible that we're getting what we think we need which may or may not be correct but that's another story.
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15 hours ago, rbrowning2 said:
430 at 2.5 for a 32gm is 13.44 Ns so just within the CIP limit of 13.5 Ns for a 70mm HP excluding the mass of the wad !
which is why I think V1, velocity one measurement is 2.5 meters.CIP is based around 2.5meters however it is a little confusing and cartridge manufacturers should ideally state the distance. But speed sells so they like to keep it confusing.
In my experience CIP V1 at 2.5 and hardly ever used but V2 at 25 meters. The old more useful but not in vogue was the observed velocity.
If V1 is at 1 meter then the shot has lost for the HP nearly 24MPS by traveling just 1 metre from the muzzle !
Many thanks. My bad. All I'm interested in with regards momentum is comfort whereas the loaders are talking ballistics. Consequently, on the rare occasions that I have had a look as a guide I simply used the muzzle velocity and load weight ignoring the other ejecta.
At 1 yard from the muzzle some will have it that a loss of 150 ft/sec is not unrealistic but 100( c30m/s) more the norm.
Agree entirely with the observed velocity. This is simpler - or perhaps it just seems so as that is what we grew up with. I was lead to believe that V1 and V2 - for example - just like V2.5 as it were - where the V relates to the velocity at the 2.5 distance. Are you saying that this is not so and I have it wrong and that V1 is 2.5m and that V2 is 25m?
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26 minutes ago, rbrowning2 said:
The speed is measured at 2.50 meters from the muzzle, so if gamebore are quoting 1400 at the muzzle that is likely to be within CIP regulations for standard steel.
Post a link to the gamebore website for the cartridge.
Just looked at their dark storm and indeed they show both muzzle and CIP V1 = 2.5meter velocities to confirm they are within the CIP regulations, note the HP for the 430meters.
Wouldn't V1 be one metre?
A clue might just be that the 1490 equates to a MV0 of 454 m/s. 430 at 2.5m would probably be well over the max momentum figure.
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Apologies, got called away.
However, the surface area is as given - 9.24mm) - matches a lead No 2 but which equates (loosely) to a steel No 3 at 3.43mm (0.135").
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For the sake of accuracy, it may be worth noting that in the BASC lethality link in Hants Rob post above above that the standard steel No 3 shot isn't. It is a steel No 4 at the top end of the permitted tolerances. 3.25 + 0.05 = 3.3mm
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"To avoid confusion, I know that steel shot works, but just that it doesn't as well as lead. Additionally, you don't always need the power of lead as enough is sufficient."
I think it's fair to say that it's high time BASC produced (to CIP specified loadings - as SAMMI figures are of no use to us) a revised pattern testing procedure aimed at steel shot (correcting the existing one for lead wouldn't go amiss either). It may just also pay to do something about offering a guidance for steel shot penetration details. For convenience, as we grew up with vulnerable areas and are already familiar with this, perhaps we could leave the vital areas on the other side of the pond.
As it will become an all new ballgame perhaps we also need to consider Gauss as we know that his 'bell' relates to this topic; as also does the theory of probability which was noted by the BRL.
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23 minutes ago, Graham M said:
Think yourselves lucky you don't have to deal with West Mercia.
PCC letter to Chief Constable on firearms licensing performance 26 September 2023
Dear Pippa,
I write further to our discussion on the Firearms Licensing Unit (FLU) at last week’s West Mercia Governance Board (WMGB).
Having reflected I feel it is appropriate and necessary to formally set out my significant concerns around some elements of performance within the FLU and seek your reassurance that these concerns will be urgently addressed.
As I stated at WMGB public safety is my top priority, but with the additional resources I have made available to enact the operational activity you recommended, the public are entitled to expect an improvement in service without compromising safety. I felt at times that the discussion focused more on describing the problem, with insufficient emphasis on a clear route map towards sustained performance improvement, in line with the intent set out in my decision earlier this year to invest additional resources in the FLU.
As Commissioner I have received sustained and significant concerns from members of the community expressing their concern and frustration on this topic. I have continued to raise these concerns on behalf of the public with West Mercia Police and have been clear in my appetite to see reduced backlogs and faster processing of cases. The nature and frequency of correspondence from residents, business owners, MPs and councillors demonstrates that the safe use of firearms by responsible owners remains a key element of both community life and the local economy in West Mercia. It is vitally important to them that the service level provided by the FLU reflects that.
I am aware of the context to this matter in respect of West Mercia being the area with the highest volume of firearms licences in the country and the additional workload now associated with firearms licensing. I recognise the significant level of demand this places on the FLU. That is why I made £200,000 of additional resource available and indicated my support for further investment if it is required.
My initial investment decision in March 2023 was taken in full consultation with the Force with a view to improving performance and better meeting community needs. At the time, the average wait for the issue of a firearms licence and shotgun licence were 230 days and 251 days respectively. Renewals of firearms licences and shotgun licences were 86 days and 66 days respectively. The intent of that additional investment was that the current backlog would reduce by 30% – 50% within 2023/24, and the average wait time for applications should reduce to 150 days as a maximum.
I am concerned that based on subsequent updates at WMGB overall performance against these key outcomes continues to deteriorate rather than improve. This includes a 24% increase in the backlog of shotgun renewal applications since May this year (now standing at over 600), as part of an 8% overall increase in backlogged demand in the same period. If current trajectories are maintained, we will be approaching a full year for people to receive the service they need and rightly expect.
I recognise that significant additional workload requirements for the FLU have landed since January, but I have equally been clear and consistent in my expectation that the Force operates a service that is timely as well as safe. The intent of March’s decision notice has not changed, and I am concerned that delivery of those promised improvements is at risk.
The public have a reasonable expectation that their Police and Crime Commissioner can commission an efficient and effective service from West Mercia Police (WMP), with service standards that they would support. We do not seem to have yet achieved that with the current performance of the FLU.
I would ask that an updated paper is brought to WMGB in October setting out the force’s actions that are being taken to address the concerns I have outlined and reassurance that the performance improvements within FLU will be delivered within the agreed time frames.
Yours sincerely,
John Campion
West Mercia Police and Crime Commissioner
Doesn't sound too bad compared to here - 86 and 66 days for an FAC and SGC renewals respectively compared to a straightforward (PCP addition) variation at 97 days and counting. At least the PCC sounds switched on.
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On 22/12/2023 at 12:36, wymberley said:
It is.
Haven't heard from step-son so he's either locked up in The Tower or his fiance gave him a good slapping. (See above)
And I've had a reply which is almost verbatim as I expected. I didn't know what Bcc meant but found out. Feel sorry for my MP as he sounded fed up that I copied him for info only but at that stage required no action. The reply - not from the P&CC herself but a Customer Services Support Officer made things easy and my response has been sent. MP will be pleased that I've now asked for his input should he see fit - the MP down in Plymouth who is causing/has caused all the trouble is of a different political persuasion
No response so had another go. I don't suppose BASC thought to ask about how progress was going with the review while they were busy teaching the FELU how to do land checks recently.
Anyone else from Devon and Cornwall waiting up to 3 months+ for a variation?
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19 minutes ago, Konor said:
More strength to you Scully regarding taking others to task.
I find it a shame sometimes when there seems to be little common ground in some disagreements but find that a lack of perspective can occur when people are so focused that they don’t see the bigger picture. I think we’ve probably all been there. Clarity in discussing your point if it’s just can be a great aid in winning those over to your point of view, as you will no doubt know. In truth most shooters should be striving for the same goals the most important being freedom to enjoy our sport at a sustainable level with equipment that is fit for purpose. A humane end to our quarry’s life is our responsibility that and ensuring game is fit for the table should be at the forefront of our mind when we are considering the suitability of our ammunition. Our shooting organisations should be doing their utmost to ensure we are able to continue to make that happen. Sometimes I don’t think that is their primary concern.Well said and that's a wrap as it brings us full circle. Trouble is that it's only we old farts who remember:-
(i) Safe to use
(ii) Effective
(iii) Affordable
(iv) Non-toxic
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55 minutes ago, Scully said:
Good post. 👍
Well, except for the last paragraph. 😉
I am more than ready and willing to argue with all and sundry, including fellow shooters.
This is my way of life, my passion, matched by the monumental frustration I experience at the inability ( or a lack of will? ) of our shooting organisations ( I no longer consider any of them representatives ) and the lethargic indifference of the vast vast majority of so called shooters who can’t even be bothered to click on a link and fill in a questionnaire to put their point of view across.
And if anyone thinks I only give faceless online shooters a hard time, you couldn’t be more wrong. It happens to mates and indeed our small syndicate members, and there are more than a few hypocrites on here I would gladly meet up with to point out the error of their ways. 🙂Steady on, Scully, with the exception of the means of communication you're starting to sound like Conor.
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29 minutes ago, martinj said:
We all got by nicely thank you, I remember when a Mars bar was 4d so you would get change from a sixpence and would get 60 mars bars to the £
(probably larger Mars bars too) 🙂
Probably? You mean like wagon Wheels?
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"If you go up at least one shot size [with steel] as you did before [with lead] you have the same kinetic energy and penetration as you would with a lead alternative."
So, when did this happen? The last I heard it was at least 2 shot sizes - not including the "bumped up" steel shot size amendment.
To avoid confusion, I know that steel shot works, but just that it doesn't as well as lead. Additionally, you don't always need the power of lead as enough is sufficient.
43 minutes ago, holloway said:Agreed ,they will be blaming Basc for this forum being down for a while as well 😀.
Do you know of any other 'authority' that shares the BASC opinion on the 'up one size' for steel over lead?
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41 minutes ago, grahamch said:
There's a lot of nonesense in steel shot threads my fowling pals have no problems with it nor do folk i know who use 20's with steel for woodies etc.
Evolve or die I guess.
The old farts have struck again on this thead!
Yes, but what is your opinion?
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On 14/01/2024 at 14:55, Old farrier said:
I’m not knocking it
could you explain exactly what you are trying to say please 🤔
Can understand your confusion. Rare thing on PW, but elsewhere commonly known as a compliment.
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38 minutes ago, Old farrier said:
ok it’s not the most reliable scientific method but in each case the lead shot birds have been less damaged
Don't knock it (or yourself). With shotguns science can only get you into the ballpark; empirical data will put you in the centre circle.
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52 minutes ago, JKD said:
Why not send him a PM, he might get a notification via his email if he has set that option.
Done. Don't want to keep pestering if he's up to neck. Neither of us are going anywhere.
Tragic news
in General Shooting Matters
Posted
Yep, a lot of it going on and hence the old safety poster - "Don't Assume CHECK".
I would imagine that perhaps if the cow was down and the farmer down with it, there may well have been insufficient 'human' showing for a positive ID whatever illumination was in use.