Vipa

I find it amazing (and quite sad as a human being) that people refuse to see the difference here.. Its not a chip on my shoulder! How would you feel if I started farming and rearing deer so that when they were mature I could line up 4 or 5 rifles at between 1 and 200 yards and then scare the deer into running accross the line, the intention being of course to see if any of said rifles could hit said deer.. I will charge say, £200 per beast and at the end of the day the rifles can then take a brace if they want..

As I say... I fear you are missing my point entirely... This is nothing to do with being a veggie or a carnivor, farmed animals are bred for the table, not so the chaps in the slaughterhouse can have a laugh shooting them after they are chased accross the field! As an aside, I find the whole abatoir system rather sinister and that is the main reason I started stalking.. I take my own free range meat.. I knew how it had lived, what condition it was in and that it had as swift and painless a dispatch as possible and I know how it was treated after it had died.. I do not send deer to the game dealer, I do not stalk just for the hell of it and if the deer in my crosshairs is not destined for my or my familiy's freezers then the safety catch stays on and I savour the moment! And of course I enjoy it.. I wouldn't do it if I didn't!

I think you are missing the 'one dimensional point.' Once you have taken the concsious, moral decision to give life to an animal so you can then kill it for fun, you waive all and any rights to stand on any moral high ground and criticise others in their methods... nothing, absolutely nothing could be more morally repugnant than that initial decision and move to action... I could give you loads of analogies but your blinkers would filter them out! And if you cannot see the difference between wild animals and those bred for killing for fun then I would suggest your moral compass is beyond repair!

So doesn't UK game shooting involve rearing animals with the sole intention of shooting them for fun then?

Yup!

What I get the impression you are saying is "quick.. if we can shut the naysayers up, there will be a few more pages of posts and anyone lokking at the thread will not notice that there are actually some shooters who aren't afraid toi rock the boat!"

Exactly Hamster... I have my views but it wouldn't stop me standing shoulder to shoulder with the game shots out there to defend their sport.. The nice thing about being human is that I have a choice... a choice to participate or not. I have deep moral reservations surrounding pheasant shooting in particular but also any othe 'sport' that involves rearing living fun targets.. but don't have any issue whatsoever with others persuing thier chosen recreational activity.. What I am having a dig at here is the fact that, as soon as you step over that line and take that decision to give life to and care for an animal with the sole intention of then killing it for sport, EVERYTHING else in the process is overshadowed by what has already been done.. that is the same whether you release the birds from a box, by hand, into a field.. it's all the same and it is when brits get on their soap boxes and criticise the yanks for their methods it all just gets a bit paradoxical... You are both doing the same thing.. I really can't see why bringing an animal into the world, caring for it then transporting it to a field in a box or opening the pens and letting them out, scaring them into flight then shooting them is any different or more humane than manhandling them into flight... all the other steps in the process are the same and , at the end of the day, you have both made the concious decision to give life to something in full knowledge and with the intention of then shooting it for fun! Anyhoo.. just repeating myself now.. so I'll shut up!

I had a look through this the other day when I was at John's place.. superb scope.. optics as good as anything I have looked through or owned (and as you know, I have owned some serious top shelf kit!).. I would have bought it my self but the mag range wasnt right for my intended use.. Fab scope.. someone will be a happy bunny when it's sat atop thier rifle!

What... not allowed to express a personal opinion or viewpoint? tow the line or shut up? hmmm!

Nope.. they are deliberately breeading and rearing living creatures with the SOLE intention of using them as live targets FOR FUN... nothing else in the entire process matters. THAT is the inhumane part of the 'sport.' Once you have taken that step then absolutely nothing else you could do to the animals comes remotely close to being as sinister! As I have said, I don't have a problem with pheasant shooting and would never, ever criticise someone for doing it, I shoot wild animals but wouldn't shoot a specifically bread beast for fun, that is my mind set and my choice.. BUT... if you think that it is the method of target presentation that is the issue and can neatly 'ignore' the most basic, fundamental issue with this type of game shooting, then I would suggest you take a long inward look at your moral compass.. Each to their own and I would defend any game shooters rights to enjoy thier sport but please leave the hipocrasy at home!

At the end of the day we are not discussing cricket.. The abhorrent part is bringing a living creature into the world for the sole purpose of then killing it for fun... Frankly, at that point, the method employed to put the birds in front of a gun is irrelevant.

So.. Breeding pheasant and then releasing them into a known area when they are mature, then getting a load of people and dogs to force them Ito the air to be shot for fun Vs Breeding pheasant and then releasing them into the air to be shot for fun....... Personally, I can't see much difference other than the American way misses a step out! Bit of hipocrasy going on here me thinks! Don't have any issue at all with pheasant shooting but not my bag, however, criticising someone else's methods, when the process is in effect the same.. I.e. breeding animals with the sole intention of shooting them for fun, is a bit rich!

ach.. it wasn't a criticism of you... I get job enquiries in from time to time and nothing makes for a speedier filing process in the cabinet marked B1N than poor grammar and incorrect wording.. just me being me.. lol I salute you for taking the time to write and bang the letter off to her, it just upsets me some that you have probably undervalued yourself in her eyes for no other reason than incorrect use of words... you have done yourself an injustice in the process. Good on ya for doing it though

Nope... it means having the 'RIGHT' to vote removed and therefore has no place in any letter to any MP or otherwse unless belonging to one of my afforementioned group

You are wrong... It does matter... I agree, doing something is great but don't do it I a way that makes o E look like a dork. I would like to think anyone with the intelligence and education required to get into to parliament would know what emancipation meant and any other word associated with it.. After all, it is the reason they are in the job they are in (or not in the case of disenfranchisement!) Don't undervalue the impact, or lack of, of good grammar but this is not grammar, this is basic understanding of the words being used and written down. It devalues the letter, it devalues the author... 4th word in and I would be thinking.... Here we go... Another one.. Can't even be ***** to look a word up on Google.. Why should I be bothered to read it and take it seriously..

Why oh why do people use big words in letters.... is it to come accross more intelligent? well educated? from classier stock? all that happens is you come accross as exactly the opposite! If you dont FULLY understand the meaning of a word please do not use it.. particularly when a word has a specific political meaning and you are addressing an MP! If you just can't resist, at least pick up a dictionary! Unless you have been locked up, been committed under the Mental Health Act, have suddenly regressed to under the age of 18 or have been found out to be an illegal alien...... YOU HAVE NOT BEEN DISENFRANCHISED!

Not just you mate.. my left hip is niggling and obviously on its last legs and getting up is painful.. I stiffen up after 10mins.. I'm the same age as you! not good is it!

how are you going to re-size the brass with no press or dies?

No.. taxed at the same rate as petrolium.. it is nothing more exciting than good old demand and supply... huge demand and, due to a (relatively) limited refining capacity, a struggling supply side..

Any other lawful quarry

What has gone before is irrelevant.. the world is changing all the time, attitudes, the media etc.. whether there is or has been a problem in the past is moot... it will only take 1 incident in the future and with a vehement, almost militant in some instances rejection of any kind of training requirement, the shooting community will suffer greatly.. A 1 day basic firearms handling and safety course... is that too much to ask? When I bought my Stihl chainsaw the dealer was obliged to spend a good hour taking me through basic safety and handling! amazing to think we attach more potential danger to a garden tool than a firearm!

for anaphalaxis... adrenaline.. my daughter carrie 2 epipens due to her peanut allergy but I don't see how you would get hold of one as a 'just in case' piece of kit for the dog.. pretty nasty stuff if administered incorrectly

Mine used to say.. 'shooting fox ONLY whilst shooting deer' now, if you think of the logistics of that, in particular the time, I could never lawfully shoot fox unless during the day as I would have a hard time explaining to the beak why I was out shooting deer at 2am!

I spent ages looking for info on sizing etc.. with limited luck.. WGD gave some useful insight... thanks William, you helped greatly with my choice.. So.. now I have my new jacket I thought I'd throw some info out there for anyone else in the market.. particularly as winter is only around the corner.. So... sizing.. as an ex Pro Hunter owner I was concerned about the new 'slimmer cut' that was constantly mentioned with the 'x' version so I ordered a C56 (UK 46" and the same size as my old Pro Hunter even though I have lost weight and the old one felt too big)...... That was a mistake.. the new slimmer cut is exactly that... it is a slimmer, more tailored cut... nothing else, there is exactly the same amount of room in the 'X' version as there is in the standard Pro Hunter just less baggy in the boob and back areas, so.. if you are moving from standard to 'X' buy the same size. On the sizing front I have come to the conclusion that, to give a good snug (not tight.. just 'fitted') fit, you need to drop 2 sizes from your normal jacket size... My blazer/jacket size is UK48" and if I measure with a tailors tape accross my nips then I come out at 51" (I need to try harder with my diet!) The C56 (which should be equivalent to a UK46") was the first I ordered.. with shirt and medium weight sweater on it was like putting on a tent! it drowned me.. with a fleece on as well I could have possibly got away with it (if I liked loads of room in a jacket.. there was probably room to get a down jacket on instead of the fleece and still not be anywhere near restricted) but lets face it.. how often are you likely to need that many layers on other than mid winter in very harsh conditions... An expensive piece of kit (and probably not the best choice) for only the coldest occasions! So.. I sent it back and ordered a C54 (UK 44") This fits me perfectly with base, shirt & med weight sweater and does not feel cramped with a fleece on aswell although that would be it.. don't think I could get a down jacket on under there as well but then Why would I want to! Most of the time it will be base, shirt and sweater or just shirt if moving around. The way the jacket is tailored and cut means movement is not restricted, even if mounting a shotgun.. this is contrary to the standar Pro Hunter which is not tailored at all and relies purely on 'room' inside to reduce restriction, the very reason they are cut so large. However, I will say that, as a shotgun shooting jacket, my Beretta Gun 6 is much nicer, but then that is what it is designed for.. it would be rubbish as a stalking jacket! Harkila don't themselves seem to market the 'X' as a shotgun jacket but the UK retailers seem to be trying to market it as a specific bird shooting jacket... that can also be used for stalking! I would say that is a made up thing to try and broaden the market appeal... yes, it now has drained lower pockets which have little or no fancy attachments/iner pockets/clips/pouches and so lend themselves more to cartridges (there are some bullet loops in one pocket still) and the shoulder and back tailoring make mounting a shotgun for a high bird less restrictive.. but as far as I can see, this is still a stalking jacket but an evolution of the design and one that is far more versatile.. in other words, a stalking jacket that lends itself to a driven shoot rather than the other way around! As for the jacket itself.. same bomb proof cordura, still damned heavy (but no heavier than my Beretta Gun 6) the tailoring is much nicer though with lots of attention to detail.. Articulated elbows, Raglan sleeves, pleated action back... these are why it is more expensive than the standard, all those extra cuts/seams/stitching/sealing etc increase production difficulty & time and cost money. It is a much classier looking jacket for the extra design work and effort though and whilst functionality is the name of the game.. at 400 quid it needs to look pretty darned good too! Whilst I loved my old standard Pro Hunter I was never a great fan of the colour... I always felt it looked too 'green' in a sort of kids paintbox way... it never came accross as a 'natural' muted shade like barbours or berettas... Harkila do offer other jackets in thier line up in a more muted natural shade, why they insist on sticking with this OTT shade for the PH line is a little beyond me.. Anyhoo, due to that I went for the Shadow Brown instead.. it may not appeal to the hardcore 'must wear green' brigade but to me it makes for a much more classy garment that will be just as elegant around town and in the office as it will crawling through knee deep **** in the forest in Scotland! At the end of the day deer cant see colour anyway so what does it matter... a block of lake green will look exactly the same as a block of shadow brown to your average roe and there is even the miniscule advantage that you will dissapear into the shadows faster at last light! The embroidery is the same colour as the fabric which I like... none of the fancy gold stuff of the standard jacket and the storm hood is a much better fit.. I couldn't fasten the front round my chin and mouth on the standard version, I can with this so all the better. As for construction, one last point.. My biggest gripe with my old PH was the tiny light duty poppers and front zip they used.. That has now thankfully changed too... nice decent big poppers and the main zip is more substantial, although the zip connecting the hood to the jacket still appears a bit lightweight.. but then, I never had any trouble with it on my old one! So there you have it..... lovely jacket, a tad on the expensive side but then, assuming I dont drop another few stone I should still be wearing this and staying comfy & dry & looking good in 5.... 10 years plus! and if I'm not, someone else will be.. I find it hard to imagine what you could possibly do to damage the fabric or stitching other than mount a deliberate attack on it with a sharp hunting knife such is the quality and substance of the fabric and stitching! To my eyes the brown is a nicer colour and makes for a classier, more versatile piece of clothing... you may disagree.. after all its all down to personal preference on that front! My advice would be to buy 2 sizes down from your normal 'suit' jacket size.. i.e. if you are a 48" go for a C54, if a 46" go for a C52 etc.. unless of course you like LOTS (and lots) of room in your jackets (did I mention LOTS! ) Any questions just ask.. Montrose guns & tackle have the best deal I could find at £398 shipped £40 quid plus shipping costs less than everywhere else! Paul

The dog owner doesn't stand a chance against the farmer.. media stink or not.. many years ago I lived in the dales and used to walk my dog up the same country road every day.. she wandered into one of the farm fields once and I immediately re-called.. That evening I had a knock on the door and it was plod.. the farmer had seen the dog in the field and claimed she had had one of his sheep by the throat (if you had seen my dog you would have realised how rediculous an accusation that was!) anyhoo... she had not been anywhere near any livestock.. it just turns out he was a bitter and twisted ****** who hated townies passionately.. everyone in the village knew this.. I digress... Plod made it clear in no uncertain terms that if they received 1 more compllaint from the farmer the dog would be destroyed!!! I went to see the farmer to appologise and start some kind of dialogue and was told to **** off.. he didn't want my appology, it wasnt accepted and if he saw my dog so much as a foot through one of his gates she would be shot! Not nice folk some farmers... the most self righteous bigotted bunch on the face of our green and lovey land! (present company excluded Charlie! ) other than the few good ones I know personally I have no time for them at all.. but.. the moral of the story is.. Farmers have such pull in smaller communities that the shooting of a dog 'accused' of worrying livestock will be met with praise and applause, not anger and villification.