neil smith

I spoke to some texas cops at a shooting match in greece a couple of years ago & the law in that state says if you have good reason to believe that someone is taking your property & you will not be able to get it back you are justified to shoot them in order to protect that propery. Although this guy escaped jail it does not protect him from a secondary law suit from the criminals family for using excessive force & that may cost a small fortune should he lose that case. However I would imagine the burglary rate in texas is quite low compared to here ! N

so could an o/u a single barrell or a s/s/ Not broken showing they were not loaded they couldn't. Im not aware of a slip that alows you to carry a gun broken in this way & would be interested to see it. Muzzle awareness is the secret to safety with any firearm, waving the barrel about is not clever & makes you look like an amateur & makes others very nervous, responsible shooters who are familiar with semi's should always carry them with the muzzle verticaly down or in a slip held in the same way, remember we have two feet but only one head. N

If you get the green leopard ones save some money & dont get the filters, I had them fitted after I found they worked too well & I couldn't hear much with them in, so thinking it would allow conversation I sent them back to get the filters put in, I couldn't tell the difference when I got them back & they cost me an extra £20 but they are very comfortable & I would never go back to ear muffs. N

Minsterley Ranges !

"Tests have repeatedly proved that a competent shot can keep up a faster sustained rate of fire of aimed shots with a double-barrel gun than with a 3-shot semi-auto." This is only true when people use traditional cartridge belts to load from, there are shell carriers & 2X2 clips that alow for much faster loading methods with the auto, no S/S or O/U could outload an auto when the right tecnique's are used. Tradition has dictated that some form of double gun be used for driven shoots, to my mind as has been mentioned earlier its more about how safe the shooter is rather than which gun he chooses to use, I have seen some unsafe people using traditional guns, I beleive its very much like golf, you are expected to honour the traditional dress & codes of conduct even if you dont like it, that may change in coming years as the older shooters give up or pass on & people with different opinions take it on, we are seeing that already on smaller shoots & it will be the way of things eventually as in the USA. N

+1 for the Green Leopards Iv'e had some for the last 4 years & they are very good & show no visible signs of wear & they get a lot of use, I had the filters fitted later but to be honest I think its a waist of money because they are still too quiet & you tend to twist one of them in your ear in order to have a conversation with others but I would never go back to earmuffs, no more banging the stock of your gun on your hearing protection or smart ***** tapping them with things to make you jump They were £50 but as I say that was a good while ago, molding only took about 10 minutes. N

The Beretta gas system does seem to get dirty faster than some other auto's & perhaps you should think about cleaning it every 250 rounds or so, the gas auto's always get dirtier faster than the inertia type guns because gas is vented into the handguard area & you also get filthy when you clean them. The Inertia guns like the Benelli, Franchi, Stoeger & so on will go on working longer without any cleaning & the job of cleaning them is far easier as the handguard area magazine tube & inside the receiver gets far less dirty because there is no blowback of gas & crud to clog them up, they do however recoil slightly more than the gas auto's but the Benelli offers the comfortec recoil absorbing stock on some of its models that helps a lot. I clean the M2 I have every 450 rounds & never have any trouble with it, I also have a Super Nova pump that gets cleaned every 500 but to be honest it would go much longer, I just clean it cos I feel I should. Its always a good idea to be sparing with the oil unless its a Remington which work better oily, Mobil 1 is a good oil on many auto's & is a bit cheaper than some of the expensive gun oils out there & it works just as good & you get a large amount for your money, If you like your oil to be something special then get some "shooters Choice FP10" its the best oil I have used & is good in all semi auto's including rifles. N

Ice your very welcome to come to Border Guns PSG club, we are not in Wales but as the name sugests we are almost there, it is not far from Bishops Castle in Shropshire & we would be very pleased to show you the real game, we could even video it for the guys on here to see how well you did. drop me a line & I will organise it for you. Its unlikely you will meet the guy who filmed himself loading on a clay ground, he is an American & I agree they have no dress sense not only that he is making a bad job of loading the gun. The last video concerns me a lot,this guy claims he has slug for PSG & yet he is shooting at fence posts, I suspect he is in breech of his certificate conditions, because slug must be used on authorised ranges only & is a good example of what I was talking about earlier in this thread that many people and some clubs are doing there own thing which creates a bad image of the sport & the prejudice that you are displaying here. N

Buckshot is shot against cardboard targets with marked scoring zones & requires that you know what load & choke combination will give you the hits on target that you need to score the most points. Unlike F class rifle shooting we dont have all day to shoot a hand full of shots & need to add speed because time is a large part of the scoring system, the fastest misses of the day will not win anything, also the slowest all "A" s on a stage will equally not win, you also have to consider when & where you will do you reloading, the young lad on the video is clearly a beginer but he does nothing unsafe & is well aware of where his muzzle is pointing throughout the stage & I applaud him for that. N

Maiden22 You can try these clubs of which only Carlisle contribute to the UKPSA match circuit, the others will offer smaller club level shoots. Guisboro Gun Club Empire Shooting Sports Club South West Lancs Pistol Club Carlisle Small Arms Club Blackburn Rifle & Pistol Club I have nothing more to add here as it is clear that the perception of PSG is one of using cut down pump actions & talk of a tactical side to it, neither of which is in the slightest bit true, we have a great time and shoot many rounds in a day all very safely, im sure some of you think if you throw enough mud some of it will stick just because you are not interested in it, likewise we are not interested in people who cannot be serious around guns, some on here seem determined to get this thread closed but if the time wasters will leave it alone then perhaps it may be a usefull thread to those who have a real interest. N

Harv I can assure you I have a very good sense of humour but I lost rifles in 89 and I also had to hand over pistols in 95 which I did not find funny at all, I am all for a laugh but as part of the UKPSA I only wish to see the sport continue as I do other branches of the shooting sports. N

Your entitled to your opinion but remember opinions are like A**holes everyone has one. I am not forcing my sport onto anyone this thread was started by a guy who asked for information, I offered some & other people who thought they new what it was about chipped in, I am only concerned with portraying the correct information about the sport. People who are only interested in trying to show miss information simply show how juvernile & ignorant they are of the sport & have clearly never tried it. I have been a member of this forum for a long while & have found many people on it to be helpfull however there are always a few haters that think its clever to knock others. I wont say I told you so when all guns are banned because we didn't support each other. N

The first two video's are from clubs I do not know & demonstrate the kinds of courses of fire & targets that the UKPSA would never allow & which I would like to see change, The third video was taken at a match that was also not sanctioned by the UKPSA but was a fun shoot, however I do not see any cammo anywhere in the video only a pair of grey loose fitting trousers from next & a tee shirt, I believe the RO has a Barbour on which im sure you would approve of, the last two are nothing to do with practical shotgun competition & are examples of what some people do with guns in other countries but they are not PSG shooters, I suspect the last one is a police class in the USA, many people like to mock what they themselves are affraid of, they also think they could do it better which i very much doubt. I could drag up many video's of stupid acts by vermin & game shooters but I would not because we should embrace any shooting sport whatever it is if we all want to keep our guns, just because you use an O/U doesnt make your sport safe anymore, to the average guy in the street they are all just "guns" and should be banned. This is why this country has lost so many arms of its shooting sports, we never stick together. However if I ever decide to become a pub singer in north wales ill let you know Ice B) N

No problem here guys I guessed Mungler was only making mischief & why I did not rise to the bait with his 4 questions. I did think we were discussing a serious matter but if you prefer I will leave it there, I do not wish to upset any delicate ego's today. Have fun whatever your shooting at. N

We shoot both birdshot & slugs at matches, the steel targets must be shot no closer than 5 metres for safety reasons with birdshot & cannot be shot at with slugs which are used on cardboard or A4 size paper targets. The sport has an International following & a World shoot is planned in the next two years but just because you have never tried it & think it looks easy it is not & I suspect you would all be surprised at how hard it can be to shoot many targets in the fastest time in order to win a match. Its about winning trophys & not killing things but sometimes people find that a hard concept to grasp. As an observation which image do you all think would cause the general non shooting public the most concern. I am in no way saying that these guys in the picture are doing anything wrong because they are not they have a right to do what they do & I would defend there right to do it, its simply a demonstration of how images can give the wrong impression in the eyes of the prejudised. Think before you type. N

Thank you Mungler for demonstrating the inept ignorance that I was trying to describe in my post to Harv, I have to ask where did you get your impression of PSG from ? I suspect it was from some cammo clad idiot who "claimed" he knows all about it cos his club does it, but that club is doing there "own" version of PSG & gets everyone tared with the same brush. We are simply target shooters who try to compete against each other for the highest score like any of the rifle based target matches, you can see a point to clays & deer shooting because you like to kill things for fun unlike us but you cannot except that we are having fun by shooting small steel targets & you need to label it because you do not understand it, we must be thinking we are killing something right ! WRONG !!!!! Grow up ! Shooting sports must learn to except each other & stick together or we will lose it all/ N

The wording in the constitution is unfortunate & comes from its early days & cannot be changed without the loss of the associations charatable status or it would have been changed many years ago, there have been many attemps in council to find a way to do it, it is not a reflection of the modern sport. I do not wish to argue with you as you are clearly a practical shooter yourself & know something of the game, I do agree that getting new blood into the sport is important & finding ways to encourage people to have a go should not mean that the we should try to dress it up as some kind of "special forces" training or real life senario rubbish, anyone who has any real knowledge of such things would laugh at the idea that what we do as being realistic training. We shoot stages designed to test a shooters accuracy while negotiating obsticals against the clock, real life tactics are not a consideration in the stages we build & should not be in yours. I suspect that many clubs are out of touch with the sport at a national level & although they are affiliated to the UKPSA they are not actively encouraging their members to run & build UKPSA sanctioned matches, the only one in your region is Carlisle to my knowledge, many clubs like you state the fact that they dont like "rules" which I remind everyone are there for everyone's safety & to make the game fair for all competitors, I am pushing to find ways of making clubs more responsible in the way they portray practical shotgun & to follow the guidlines set by the UKPSA/IPSC rulebook & prove they are doing so in order to remain affiliated to the association, after all if you say your affiliated then you should follow the rules and standards set out by the governing body should you not. In order to hold a shotgun for practical shooting it is required by most police forces that you be a direct member of the association or a member of an affiliated club and yet the UKPSA has no checks in place as yet to follow up on clubs to see if what they are calling PSG is in line with the ethos of the sport & portrays the right image to new shooters and any passing spectators. We have some way to go but it must be done to preserve practical shooting sports for future generations. N

Harv I do not wish to offend you, I was refering to your "Special Forces" comment & not your first post which was fine, but if you have been shooting practical for that long can you tell me the club you go to for matches ? I only ask because I would think anyone who is a regular competitor at the UKPSA matches would be aware that any reference to combat or other references to "training" is very much frowned upon & is not what the modern game is about & that you would already know me. I am concerned that some clubs are tarnishing the reputation the UKPSA has sought to build up over many years by offering there own brand of practical shotgun, I would like to see the UKPSA do something about them because it is those clubs that give rise to the ignorance & missguided comments that I find coming from other branches of the shooting sports & from some uninformed members on forums similar to this one. It is a fun sport, it is very safe, but it is not about playing "special forces" even if you meant it in jest, comments like that stick in the minds of the uninformed & sow the seeds of prejudice. Practical Shotgun is growing & it is important that it grows in the correct way to ensure we will have it in the future. N

SPECIAL FORCES TRAINING FOR FAT DAD'S Harv's comments are not helpfull here The UKPSA works hard to promote what is nothing more than a target shooting sport, stages are shot against the clock & targets are small steel plates typicaly six inches square at various distances, movement & loading skills are required & safety is the main priority. The UKPSA is the UK's representative for the IPSC (International Practical Shooting Confederation) which is the sports global governing body, they sanction the matches & regulate the sport, Practical Shotgun is growing world wide & we have a UK Championship consisting of six major matches in a year (best of 5 to count) and we have had two European Championships so far (Italy 2003 & Greece 2006) both were excelent matches. Get yourself to a club that is affiliated to the UKPSA Border guns in shropshire is a good one or Swadlincote near Burton on Trent, Worcester Norton hold open competitions every other month but are not UKPSA matches but the standards of safety are good. Contact me if you wish to know more... You can see some UKPSA match video's in my signature link. N