Fellside
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Posts posted by Fellside
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Silly fast cart’s don’t give much advantage if any - the pattern just decelerates faster. It’s mainly a marketing advantage rather than a shooting advantage. As LB points out the difference in lead between high velocity and standard velocity loads is a few inches - in other words no practical difference.
The most important thing - is that these cart’s are never going to give you a really important advantage - CONFIDENCE!! Move on to some other cart’, even if others rate them. They’ll ruin your focus. We all have our ‘confidence cartridge’. Clearly this isn’t yours.
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I think Ultrastu makes a good point. Seldom is nature in balance - there is a constant state of flux. Also, we have a managed countryside - therefore managed intervention is continually necessary for conservation. As the fox no longer has tertiary predators (wolves, lynx and bears etc) it’s UK population would explode without general culling. Short of having bears and wolves roaming the urban fringes, the only practical control mechanism is shooting.
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51 minutes ago, BrowningDJC said:
I’m going to try these next time I have to buy cartridges. I’m sure more and more non toxic loads will be released for 20 bores, and in the end 16 also.
Its 28 and 410 I feel will struggle with steel, but that’s another topic!
See if you can try out a recently made used one - no more than a couple of years old. If the cart’s fire one by one, then they’ve sorted the double discharge…?!
I wouldn’t buy without being certain the problem has been resolved. It took ages for my friends to get their money back. On the positive side they are beautiful handling guns in 20g.
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Two people I know both bought the above 20 bore Rizzini. I can’t precisely remember when - possibly 3 or 4 years ago. Both guns suffered from double discharge, i.e both barrels firing from a single trigger pull. After a lot of fuss and nonsense they eventually got their money back. One now has a Beretta EELL, the other a Browning B725. Perhaps Rizzini have sorted the issue (?), as their guns seem to be selling now.
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43 minutes ago, enfieldspares said:
Yes. I would hope so. I might go a bit blue in the face holding my air in but we can hope.
🤞👍
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13 hours ago, 8 shot said:
I visit The Farming Forum now and again and there is a thread on there of a farmer losting several cow and calf's to lead poisoning. Post mortum confirmed lead poisoning with no explanation what so ever. the land never shot over, no lead pipes etc. all obvious causes looked at. Other cows and calf's sharing the same the field tested showed no trace. Science can prove absolutley nothing
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13 hours ago, enfieldspares said:It is quite possible indeed to just complete page one...ONLY of the survey and add a single "General Comment" and then click through leaving all other parts blank if time is pressing. Just because you don't have an answer to input to every section doesn't exclude from making one single "General Comment".
Here's a link. Making this (further submission) took me but five minutes by making in this merely the one observation as below in "General Comment":
https://consultations.hse.gov.uk/crd-reach/restriction-proposals-004/
Here is mine. Please feel able to use it if you wish:
Why have the New Zealand "Fish and Game" Regulations not been considered?
Below is what would be useful to be considered for the United Kingdom and, indeed, would bring the law in England and Wales regarding geese and ducks shot over land into line with the law in Scotland. Lead shot being banned....for use in the conditions below ONLY...for all calibres of shotgun excluding .410" when:
Lead shot being prohibited for:
- ALL waterfowl hunters including private landowners hunting on their own property hunting or killing waterfowl within 200m of water.
But lead shot is continued to be allowed, in New Zealand, in all bores of shotgun as well as .410" in the circumstances below:
- ALL hunters of upland game (all pheasants) are exempted. That's because research has shown these birds are not affected because the shot "in the uplands" is so widely dispersed
- Users of a .410 bore shotgun
- All hunters who pass the "200m rule test" (see below).
The "200m Rule Test" being:
- If you're hunting waterfowl (swans, geese, ducks), MORE THAN 200 metres from a water body, which is taken as any stream, river, lake or tidal area, "more than 3m wide," you can continue to use lead shot, if you wish. Lead shot that falls on land away from water is not a significant risk to waterfowl
- If you are hunting BOTH upland AND waterfowl within 200m of a waterway, more than 3m in width, then you must use ONLY non-toxic shot
- If you hunt in a tidal area, then the 200m rule applies from the Mean High Water Mark. So you may be 500 metres away from the water's edge at low tide, but this is not a defence. Similarly, if you're hunting next to floodwaters it is the edge of the floodwater at that time that you measure the 200m from.
The New Zealand Fish and Game Rules carry this simple to understand reasoning that would quite easily be applied to the UK:
- The 200m rule may sound like an odd exemption, but it does allow, for instance, hunting waterfowl over paddocks with lead and allows lead to be used for ALL upland game bird hunting, ALL clay target shooting and ALL farm pest control.
- The 200m rule recognises that lead is not a problem away from waterways.
So I would ask, as are many many others that the New Zealand Rules be considered as a sensible, workable and cost free as no compensation would be required solution for the United Kingdom.
In the event that we are listened to at all - an adoption of the New Zealand model would be a breath of fresh air.
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3 hours ago, Scully said:
Exactly. However, it’s not about the science, it’s about agendas.
As would I, but it’s down to agendas.
Why? Because of agendas.
Correct. Nothing to do with food safety and everything to do with agendas. 🙂I too recognise this ‘agenda’ you speak of as a real threat. It’s certainly very real alright. I just hope (and we have to hope!) that this agenda will be challenged by real science.
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2 minutes ago, Dave at kelton said:
It seems to me that we have three things weighing in here.
1. The steel loads developed, and being developed, by the manufacturers and their recommendations as to suitability for different guns, taking into account their natural caution.
2. Ballistics science being used to argue against the use of steel as an alternative.
3. The experience of those like me and Scully, (and those across the Atlantic) who are using both standard and HP steel in guns not proofed for steel but without ill effect to date.
We can debate this till the cows come home to little or no practical benefit. In the end it’s up to you to decide what you believe, a bit like religion really, and apply it to your every day life.
That’s true enough Dave - well put. However, I would like to retain that same freedom of choice to use lead shot for terrestrial environments. If robust evidence demonstrates harmful impacts I am happy to rethink. As yet there doesn’t seem to be any non-biased clean science on this.
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P.S The consumer can do what ever they like, but that shouldn’t dictate my choice of what I shoot game with. Incidentally there is scant evidence (if any) for terrestrial lead shot impacts to wildlife.
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49 minutes ago, bigroomboy said:
Actually, no that isn't a simple question and the studies have never been done to prove or disprove. What is known is that lead is a cumulative neurotoxin to humans and even worse for other wildlife. The risk may be low and I've always been happy to accept that, but if the consumer of food doesn't want to take that risk and reasonable alternatives exist then people need to get over it.
Do you know of any robust data re elevated Pb plasma levels from lead shot game alone? I’m not talking about lead toxicity theory or poisoning incidents - there is endless data on this.
If research has shown a lack of correlation, or if quality research simply doesn’t exist, it is this which people need to get over. Any changes to legislation must be evidence based.
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10 minutes ago, Gas seal said:
Each gauge of shotgun has a different speed and pellet size for steel . Lead and steel cartridges are different the same as heavy metal type of cartridges. I’ve loaded 12 and 10gauge fast steel cartridges and they are a better cartridge. I have loaded steel 6 and 7 in 410 and 28gauge. The USA have commercial steel and tss type cartridges in 410. There are other types of non lead shot, non toxic means lead must be toxic, but more expensive. The USA are going back to the original hevi shot l think they use it for pheasants . A lot of the plastic wads are from Italy, I don’t know of any bio wads being made by them. I have used bio wads for 10 12 and 28 but the 410 is to small a cartridge I didn’t try it. We also have 9mm and 24gauge out there and muzzle loaders and black powder guns. Looks like change for all of us, no more cheep lead cartridges or components to reload . The cartridge manufacturers will need different powders to load steel and a lot of steel pellets.
Interesting points. I have been keeping a keen eye on what’s been happening over the pond. Yes the old type ‘hevishot’ is making a come back. Unfortunately however, the ready loaded cart’s are about £4. each….?! Great stuff actually. I still have some which I was lucky enough to have been given…….but I wouldn’t like to buy it for general shooting…..or even fowling for that matter.
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5 hours ago, Scully said:
Due to the class system we have ( or had ) in this country, we don’t have a tradition of hunting unlike NZ or many other countries.
Our only hunting tradition was foxes with hounds, originally undertaken by wealthy landowners , their guests and servants, and that was banned basically.
In the light of that I can’t see how an exemption for the .410 could logically be made given that the reason for the banning of lead is for the benefit of the environment and it’s claimed toxicity when used to shoot game etc.If the .410 was given an exemption then many ( including myself ) would be using one for driven game and decoying, thereby defeating the basis for the legislation. I’m pinning my hopes on the development of a usable non toxic load.
I have to say, rather like you, I don’t necessarily expect a 410 derogation, more a case of hoping that we get it. There are several sound arguments for this, which I hope the org’s are going to make a strong case with. Regarding a new non-toxic load, the biggest shooting market in the world, the USA, haven’t found one yet, despite lead being banned in most states for hunting. It is therefore hard to expect a new wonder shot material…. although I would very much welcome one. Tungsten is great stuff, but incredibly expensive. China holds 80% of the known global supply - and ‘add value’ by offering finished products only. If a new massive reserve is discovered somewhere else…….?!
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16 minutes ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:
No, but I very much doubt we will gain anything from whatever the offered solution is!
I’m hopeful that we adopt the New Zealand approach. They’ve allowed lead cart’s for 410s to continue - citing its importance as an entry gun for youngsters etc. Who really knows at this stage…?
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2 hours ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:
Pigs might fly first!
If a restriction in lead shot use is based on a percentage reduction - that could well leave room for the non ‘mass market’ small bores. It just depends how it all works through. It is very early days yet. Different countries have approached this in their own various ways. How will the UK respond….? Does anyone really know yet….?!
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9 hours ago, Gas seal said:
Yes it’s a pigeon shooting forum and a cartridge forum discussing steel and lead cartridges, and it’s very interesting. I don’t think cartridge manufacturers would make non lead cartridges with bio wads because shooting organisations want lead to be made illegal. The new cartridge factory in Spain making bio cartridges must know something we don’t. Not using lead pellets is nothing new , in this country and other countries. If the shooting organisations are looking for exemptions for the.410 they could try to estimate how many are used in the country and when suitable commercial cartridges will be available for them. There has always been people against shooting and always will be .
We need a ‘derogation’ for the 410.
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18 minutes ago, Newbie to this said:
Let's keep our fingers crossed, that this emotive, anti-shooting, non fact based Lead ban doesn't come to fruition. Even though it was lead by our own shooting orgs.
Yes let’s hope!!!
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1 hour ago, rbrowning2 said:
indeed for game shooting, but however this is a pigeon shooting forum, will 60p a cartridge be appropriate for crop protection? Then clay pigeon shooting, lots of grounds are fibre wads only, and clay cartridges are what keep the manufactures in business. Could realistically be looking at 40p plus per clay and 40p plus for a steel shot biodegradable clay cartridge, £80.00 to shoot a 100 clays.
it’s historically been the mix of clay cartridges, pigeon cartridges and game cartridges that has sustained or contributed to the prices of each type, lose any one revenue stream and it has consequences.Not entirely a pigeon shooting forum these days - is it?
Never the less, I am in agreement with the points you make. My comments above: “However, it is extremely important that those who don’t shoot driven, aren’t excluded by silly cart’ prices.”
Lets just keep our fingers crossed that market forces (competition) bring the steel cart’ prices down, if or when the market becomes dominated by steel shot….?!
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1 hour ago, Scully said:
You still can; I think he was referring to S1 firearms, although I’m not sure you can’t still do that. We do.
Ah yes S1 - sorry missed that. My misunderstanding.
1 hour ago, rbrowning2 said:lots of legislation is passed without the nation being offered a vote.
We look like we are just rolling over and encouraging a lead ban on poor science, blimey smoking is more of a health issue than lead in food yet nobody suggests a total ban on smoking.As Scully says it is section 1 home office approved clubs, as I understand it they can only have so many open days a year, must notify the police in advance and provide the personal details of the people attending.
Yes sorry for miss understanding that one.
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11 minutes ago, Newbie to this said:
^^^This.
I wasn’t aware that you couldn’t take a friend shooting - what’s changed? I take people clay shooting quite regularly to let them ‘have a go’. I have always understood I can supervise them as a license holder.
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I knew a chap once who was sponsored by Zoli - years ago. He was also sponsored by a few different gun makers in his career. He always spoke very highly of Zoli guns though.
They just haven’t got that ‘big brand presence’ in the UK unfortunately. Try advertising a private sale…? -
18 hours ago, Weihrauch17 said:
It is not just about the price of 12 & 20 bore steel cartridges for rich people on Commercial shoots who can afford them. It will kill Airguns, 22lr, HMR, small bore CF and none main stream shotgun gauges. Airguns are a historic way into shooting for the vast majority, me included at the age of seven.
Indeed. I have just been having a lot of fun shooting clays with a 410 today - lead shot of course. I do fear for the future of this great little caliber. What would we do without it for introducing youngsters in to shotgunning…..?!
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32 minutes ago, Old farrier said:
Happy to use it however in a lot of area’s it’s availability that is the problem along with non existent components for home loading that’s another option removed
any legislation should be fair and affordable to all not just the richest participant in the sport
Yes agreed. My comments were about how an extra 10 or 20 pence per cart’ doesn’t really hike up the price of game shooting. However, it is extremely important that those who don’t shoot driven, aren’t excluded by silly cart’ prices.
I do hope that the usual market forces (competition and new imports etc) will bring the prices down. Right now the cart’ companies seem to be trading on rarity value and the ‘new innovation’ ticket. Those selling points will soon dissolve if the mass market is dominated by steel shot.
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34 minutes ago, rbrowning2 said:
certainly can agree that the cost is increasing with steel shot and biodegradable wads these are £569.00 per 1000 at just cartridges. Don’t think of steel shot and biodegradable wads as a cheap option.
At what price does the average working person stop shooting? Or have we reached that already?
I don’t think paying 56.9 p / steel cartridge compared to about 40p / lead equivalent will make a lot of difference to the overall cost of game shooting.
I do take you’re point however that they are a silly price non the less. I think there is some commercial opportunism creeping in - re manufacturers inflating prices ahead of lead disappearing.
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1 hour ago, Walker570 said:
The sheer joy of shooting a 410. I have ben using a 410 now for six years for driven game shooting and have never felt undergunned. I will take a shot at any bird out to 40yrds and if I do my job and put it in the pattern of 18grms of #6s it will ineveitably fall. Ask a picker up just how many runners he picks behind a 12 gauge shooter and you would be surprised because 12 gauge shooters also ***** birds you know.
I have yet to enjoy the challenge of taking the 410 on a driven day. Maybe soon….?!
Result!
in General Shooting Matters
Posted
Well done Scully - good effort!
There’s a memory that boy will never forget.