Fellside
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Posts posted by Fellside
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On 21/04/2024 at 17:31, Lloyd90 said:
Any have experience of a Webley and Scott 410?
My nephew used a junior version today at a clay ground and shot well concerning he’s only 12.
Compared to a Yildiz or Kofs they seemed pretty decent quality.
Fixed choke and non ejectors mind.
How much difference does a multi choke in a 410 even make? The barrels are so small does it even make any difference?
My BIL is looking to buy one for him to use now so considering the W&S vs Yildiz etc.
Hi Lloyd,
I have recently been through this journey with my two sons. I opted for the Yildiz SPZ ME and it has been great. The 410 is quite a choke sensitive calibre. You don’t need much to make a big difference. The main advantage with a multi choke is that you can use open chokes which are very user friendly for kids. I find that the chokes on these Turkish 410s (inc the current W & S) are quite severe and from half choke and above the patterns start to blow rather than constrict. Fixed 410 chokes are often tight with iffy patterns - just my experience.
It is understandable that some people may consider the 410 too difficult for children to use - they were once! Not now though. When I was a nipper, I only had 9 or 11 grams of 6 shot through a full choke. Very tricky. Now there are dedicated clay cartridges and multi chokes - a game changer. The lightness of a 410 for youngsters is important too. Their arms and shoulders get tired with bigger guns. Even with a 410 it’s important to give them a rest (sweetie break) every 10 shots or so.
Hope that gives you some food for thought.
P.S The 410 is great fun for dads also! Nice for decoying with 3” cart’s.
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There is s helpful section on the BASC website “Taking Firearms Abroad”. It lists the countries commonly visited with firearms from the UK. Click on the Canada link. Tonnes of good info there as a starting point. There will be a process - it’s just finding it…..?! I think from this you will at least know who to approach for necessary advice at both ends.
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I am not an expert on this by any means. However, taking good sound advice from your firearms dep’t has to be a good starting point. In basic pragmatic terms, I would have confidence that it is doable, as there is a UK legal system for taking a gun abroad and equally one for transferring guns in Canada.
Good luck and have a great trip.
P.S it’s interesting that your son is a keeper in Canada. I didn’t even realise driven game shooting was catered for over there. We live and learn.
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Thanks for explaining Konor. Perhaps I should have read your previous post for context.
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4 hours ago, Konor said:
If shooting voluntarily moved away from pegged shooting where the enjoyment is predominantly gained from downing ever more birds I would be even happier.
I would hate to see the end of driven shooting completely (which I think is what you’re suggesting). This would be a great shame for those who enjoy the exhilaration of connecting with a high and fast pheasant rocketing over them. I think all things in moderation - we just don’t need to shoot 500 in a day. About a tenth of that figure is enough to ensure all the guns have had some shooting and the birds are taken away by those involved. For me it’s all about achieving a healthy balance.
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Well done. Yes agreed re stock doves. A lot in my area also - increasing numbers each year.
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I think we are crediting Mr and Mrs general public with too much awareness of game shooting. Not many (not even most politicians or directors of DEFRA) will know the differences between big scale commercial shoots and the smaller farm syndicates - which are more accessible to the average wage earner. I think the main challenge we face is in convincing the public, that there is a net conservation gain via shooting. Even the RSPB have reluctantly admitted this recently, but for some reason this has not been fully capitalised by the orgs in PR term - in needs to be. We are all acutely aware of the habitat preservation and biodiversity gains etc, but the average person in the street believes these can only be gained via designated nature reserves…..?!
In short, shooting’s PR needs to emphasise that:
a) the great majority of people who shoot are ordinary working folk - not titled estate owners.
b) the biodiversity benefits from game habitat management are enormous.
Only when these aspects of perceived class-war and conservation are addressed will we make any significant gains.
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19 minutes ago, Old farrier said:
The biggest problem with small shoots is vermin and predator control
each of the predators eat 365 days a year there is massive pressure on the 500 poults from the casual rambler blackberry pickers dog Walker the weather and predation on not only the poults but also on the feed in the cover crops along with the supplementary feeding that’s eaten by deer badgers squirrels and rats
Just my thoughts
to anyone going down this path be prepared for hard work and long days 😊
In all honesty, with a decent team on the job I’ve seen some cracking little farm shoots. Often the syndicate members become very enthusiastic part time keepers so to speak. I think it can go horribly wrong if the syndicate aren’t very motivated (or very well lead) - and it’s left to a couple of overworked volunteers to cary the weight of it all. I’ve seen that too many times.
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28 minutes ago, Konor said:
I was naively considering grass roots encouragement for smaller shoots to move away from 500 bird put and take syndicates to smaller scale but more satisfying sporting pursuits where practical rather than larger scale estate projects.
Yes a good thought. However I still think small farm syndicates (circa 500 poults) are hugely important for biodiversity. We do need those as well. Often they form a wildlife oasis surrounded by an intensively farmed ‘green desert’. Personally, I really enjoy smaller days, where there is the pressure (and thrill) of making the shot count, because there isn’t a constant stream of pheasants. I don’t want to knock the big shoots, as they are an important part of our rural economy, but scaling down a little might be an idea. Reducing live quarry to the status of many targets - rather like clays - seems somehow unattractive. Ramble over.
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33 minutes ago, enfieldspares said:
There's a song isn't there?
Quite suitable for that long journey I made now thirty plus from (for me) the East Midlands up to Central Scotland to shoot driven grouse.
How does it go? Ah. yes...
"One thousand red cartridges in my bag and if one red cartridge should get fired today there'd be nine hundred and ninety-nine cartridges in my bag,
"Nine hundred and ninety-nine cartridges in my bag and if one red cartridge should get fired today there'd nine hundred and ninety-eight cartridges in my bag,
"Nine hundred and ninety-eight cartridges in my bag and if one red cartridge should get fired today there's be nine hundred and ninety-seven cartridges in my bag"
Hmm. I think my fellow travelling guns would have stopped the car, opened the door, pushed me out and left me in Trowell Services!
😆😂 While the car was still moving me thinks.
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14 minutes ago, martinj said:
there wasn't in the 60's, have you bought any since then? 😉
I’ve just bought a thousand red cartridges - they look really nice!
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38 minutes ago, Konor said:
I take my hat off to you Old farrier for the work put in and the money invested. It’s a shame there are not grants that would match your spending to make such work more viable,it could transform areas of the countryside and perhaps even decrease the friction with some of the less fanatic anti fieldsports enthusiasts.👍
Now there’s an idea. The grant should be embraced as part of the new agri-environmental movement, managed and administered by DEFRA. The ‘Grey Partridge Scheme’.
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21 minutes ago, Old farrier said:
Very good 👍
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3 hours ago, Rewulf said:
It is an interesting read - and thank you.
My take on this piece. Some of the author’s assertions may (may!?) be true, however they are poorly evidenced as the list of references demonstrates. What we need is very robust (non biased) review of clean evidence by an external body. This task could / should have been undertaken by the HSE. Unfortunately they have proven to be biased and incapable of evaluating the science.
In the ideal world, no authority should proceed to impose lead shot restrictions in the absence of any good contemporary science - free from biased influence.
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4 minutes ago, jall25 said:
And imagine the animals and birds eating bit of plastic wad - surely frying pan to fire ?
Well……. in the ideal world, which we don’t live in, there would exist an inexpensive type of steel pellet alloyed with another heavier metal….. oh and a fully protecting bio wad. Could someone develop this please? By next Sunday would be fine as I plan to be shooting then. Cheers!
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9 minutes ago, Gordon R said:
Got to agree again. Relatively easy to collect shell cases, but wads are another matter. If we go over to steel, I am yet to be convinced about the fully enclosed wads degrading .
Perhaps someone can enlighten me. The view is that birds pick up harmful lead shot by ingesting it. Does the same not apply to steel shot? As steel shot isn't used very much, can any survey be reliable?
I think the key danger of lead shot when ingested as grit - from the papers I have read - is that it has the potential to cause non lethal harm. One example is the limiting of breeding success. It is unlikely that steel will cause similar. The other important consideration is the rapid rusting and degradation of steel shot, i.e it doesn’t hang around for long.
Don’t misunderstand my post however. This does not mean that I support any restrictions. Like most I will continue using lead where it is unlikely to be harmful. It’s just worth thinking about if there are grey partridges around, as they seem to be the most vulnerable non-wildfowl species. In real terms, for most other species, habitat quality (or the lack of it) appears to remain the key population determinant.
P.S Plastic wads, that’s an entirely different matter. Don’t get me started re plastic litter (?!). I’ve been using fibre for years for everything including clays.
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1 hour ago, Bigteddy1954 said:
Hi if the commercial shooting group changes from lead to steel which shoots thousands of lead cartridges a season over the same land and most of them do simulation days on the same piece of land in a year . So a crop and vermin shooter who may only shot a few hundred over the entire year be classed as the same as the commercial shooter. For contaminating the land with lead and plas wads. cheers
In terms of what is currently being proposed - yes.
Although, it’s easy enough to use fibre for both re lead shot.
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1 hour ago, Krico woodcock said:
The amount of lead shot litter back them days and even today in rural Ireland would be next to no risk, well compared to England the amount of shots fired, it would only be a pin in the ocean.. so chances of a partridge picking up lead pellet as grit would be near zero, compared to them picking up chemical fertilizers we call" bag stuff " eg 18_6-12 small pellet sized fertilizer they definitely would and definitely did pick and got poisoned one way or another from it. Along with all the major intense agricultural practices habitat destruction etc ..destroyed grey partridge populations.
Yes I see what you mean - perhaps not a major issue in Ireland.
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6 minutes ago, Krico woodcock said:
Correct konor.. and also the NATIONAL ASSOCIATION OF REGIONAL GAME COUNCILS (NARGC)has done and still does huge work on grey partridge projects.. and it was them that advised to take grey partridge of quarry list year's ago. Intensive farming and everything that goes along with it,from the 50's with the use of DDT sprays was the start of the demise of grey partridge. DEFINITELY NOT LEAD PELLETS.
Yes - post war agricultural intensification is the well known cause of grey partridge decline. This has been extensively documented. DDT played its part also. In fact, this period marked the beginning for the decline of many common farmland bird species. However, I think it is important to acknowledge, from recent research, that lead shot litter could play an important part in limiting the breeding success of remaining coveys. This isn’t to say it’s the only factor, but contributory. The lead poisoning does not have to be lethal to have an important adverse effect.
Just to be clear I do not (DO NOT) support any restrictions on lead shot. I might however think again if I was lucky enough to have a few coveys around. I think it should be a choice. In some circumstances perhaps steel may be appropriate.
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2 hours ago, London Best said:
The only choke which helps you hit more is less choke!
Yes for most shooting this is so true.
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2 hours ago, Gunman said:
Without knowing your height , build ,overall physical condition ,the sort of shooting and how much you intend to do it is very difficult if not near impossible to make anything but the vaguest of recommendations .
There is a huge choice of guns and people will tend to suggest guns they favour . To say one gun fits better than another is misleading as they do not know you .
Having done a lot of gun fitting I have seen too many novice shooters sold the wrong gun or have bought the wrong gun believing it is correct .Its difficult .
Personally I would in general suggest a basic game/field model 28" ,if multi choked fit the 1/4 & 1/2 then lock the rest away till you can shoot the gun well , stick to one brand and load of cartridge until you feel confident . Take a few lessons with a competent shooting coach , then and only then can you make a sensible decision as to whether you need a different gun and take your time in looking around and deciding .
Do not be swayed by magazine articles and people trying to sell you something , telling you that you need this length barrels , these coloured chokes etc.etc.etc.
All very sound advice.
(Although…. how can you knock coloured chokes? They do help you hit more….. don’t they….? 😀)
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2 hours ago, Conor O'Gorman said:
I think you are right on there being more studies for wetlands/wildfowl. The evidence weight of evidence from all sources has been reviewed by the GWCT and they support the voluntary transition.
https://www.gwct.org.uk/advisory/lead-ammunition/effects-of-lead-on-wildlife-and-wildfowl/
I have not personally reviewed all the evidence, but GWCT scientists have, and their conclusion and advice thus far is good enough for me. How about you?
I have done a quick scan of the GWCT references for the article you linked. While I haven’t had time to source and read each paper, there does appear to be at least some consensus on the impacts for grey partridge and raptors eating shot birds. I would expect some of those scholarly articles to originate from bias sources - however not all. On this basis, yes I would say it’s good enough. Thanks for the info.
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If you can recognise a gun which fits YOU well - then you are off to a good start. After gun fit (crucial!), the more ‘nice to have’ aspects come in to view, such as handling dynamics, multichoke barrels, pleasant non distracting trigger pulls, a decent recoil pad etc…
Personally (and everyone will have their preferences) I find the 30” Citori to be a bit of a fence post in terms of ‘feel’. The more contemporary sporters by Browning and Beretta tend to have much nicer balance - closer to neutral in 30”. Only you will know what fits and feels right for you out of the range of choices. All the nonsense about Browning being lower on the comb than Beretta is no longer relevant - as there are so many different models and stock dimensions for both these days. Find one that fits and feels right. Have a look at Miroku also - essentially a Browning and Bomb proof.
Welcome to Pigeon Watch by the way - and good look!
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3 hours ago, Conor O'Gorman said:
Actually, there was one new study in that search - from Scotland. If you spot others do let me know.
Incidence of lead ingestion in managed goose populations and the efficacy of imposed restrictions on the use of lead shot
Thanks for the info. I would suggest the great bulk of studies are about wetlands/wildfowl. I do acknowledge that they are vulnerable. I think ‘clean’ evidence re direct impacts on terrestrial fauna is still scant. There does appear however, to be a reasonable case for secondary impacts re birds of prey ingesting lead from wounded birds or carrion containing lead pellets.
Pigeon and Crow / Rook Decoys
in Guns & Equipment
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Agreed. Right spot more important than decoy type - so buy the easiest to carry.