A question for the pigeon guides on the forum

[Cookiemonsterandmerlin.]

DO the guides have to give a cut to the farmer whos land that they take paying clients on for pigeon shooting.

I know this subject might get a few comments but be polite please.

 

Regards OTH

Edited December 11, 2009 by Over the hill

[Cookiemonsterandmerlin.]

I guessing you guys are not to keen on answering this question.

[Blunderbuss]

DO the guides have to give a cut to the farmer whos land that they take paying clients on for pigeon shooting.

I know this subject might get a few comments but be polite please.

 

Regards OTH

 

I'm only guessing but I would have thought so. If not paying a percentage from each booking, surely some kind of annual retainer. I wouldn't imagine a landowner is going to be too chuffed with someone if he's given them permission to shoot, only to find out they are running a business off the back of it and making money from using his land?

[Cookiemonsterandmerlin.]

I'm only guessing but I would have thought so. If not paying a percentage from each booking, surely some kind of annual retainer. I wouldn't imagine a landowner is going to be too chuffed with someone if he's given them permission to shoot, only to find out they are running a business off the back of it and making money from using his land?

Hi blunderbuss hows things going.

Your view is the same as mine the only reason I have asked this question is I know a few guides us the forum.

And if you remember when I first came on here a month or so ago I same I had a story about a certain guide.

Well the story goes I loss a section of land to guide two or so years ago now it has come full cicrle as the landowner not the farmer as at the time it was tenanted has contacted me saying he did not no that the guys I loss my shooting too was taking other out on hes land and charging them.

He was not best please and when the old tenants farm lease came up for renewal he did not let him take it on for this reason.

Still what comes around goes around.

Regards OTH

[Blunderbuss]

Hi OTH, I'm good thanks, you?

 

 

Maybe a bit harsh on the tennant (unless there was more to it), could the land owner not have just told him not to allow the guide back?

 

 

Did you get the land back for yourself?

[mossy835]

did you get the land back.

[Cranfield]

I am not sure why it should concern us whether professional Guides pay the Farmer to shoot the land, or not, although its my understanding that most do.

As do a few Pigeon Clubs and make the shooting "members only", also small vermin only syndicates seem to be spring up here and there.

 

Those of us with free shooting should appreciate it and do all we can to keep it.

[Cookiemonsterandmerlin.]

did you get the land back.

Answer yes

 

I am not sure why it should concern us whether professional Guides pay the Farmer to shoot the land, or not, although its my understanding that most do.

As do a few Pigeon Clubs and make the shooting "members only", also small vermin only syndicates seem to be spring up here and there.

 

Those of us with free shooting should appreciate it and do all we can to keep it.

 

I think it is a great concern myself as IMO it in danger of making what under our umebrella is pest control .

But under a commerical business which it becomes if you are taking money and earning a crust from it a sport.

I just know that in a couple of cases locally this has not been the case and the guide has loss the right to shoot over the land.

The shock on some of the cilents faces on a bit of land I shot over a couple of years back when they found out I was shooting for free and they had payed hard earned money to be out there?

Cranfield I know you must have close contact with guides and this is a subject that is not the best for some of the forum members.

But looking at the forum some member lack of of free shooting it would seem that in certain parts of the country guides are taking over the shooting rights for so called pest control and turning into more of sporting bird shoot.Some of this land that they shoot over must at some point had the average man in street shooter who has either now loss it or has to share.

Regards OTH

[Cookiemonsterandmerlin.]

Hi OTH, I'm good thanks, you?

 

 

Maybe a bit harsh on the tennant (unless there was more to it), could the land owner not have just told him not to allow the guide back?

It maybe was but I had been the sole shooter on that farm and the landowner was happy with me.

The tenant farmer was approached by said shooter with no mention of others shooting over the land.

The worst thing was they did not respect the no shooting on a sunday that the landower wishes to be respect being a church man.

The guide rocks up on a sunday put 4 guns out one on the hedgeline next to he's farmhouse and starts shooting.

Phone call to me what the hell going on at 0730hrs I gave the shooting up there in the end due not want to share with this setup this was two years ago now.

I have just got the shooting back the landower phone me and said sorry for what has gone on.

Atfer a few trips out back on the 800 acres or so I am picking masses of emptys up bin linners full.

 

 

 

 

Did you get the land back for yourself? Yes

[David BASC]

Was it ever thus! There have been pages and pages of posts in the past about people with a bit of cash taking over what was free shooting.

 

As has been said, if you are on good terms with your lanlord than you have a very good chance of keeping your shooting even if somone with money to spend comes along.

 

As far as I know all guides will pay the landowner some money for the exclusive shooting rights for pigeons, otherwise there is the risk of the guide pitching up with a team of guets to a field of newly sown, just to find a couple of the local lads there! I guess the detail, i.e. is it a retianer plus a price per bird, or a retianer plus a price per client who knows, and frankly who cares?

 

I must say I have often wondered how the whole pigoen guide busness modle fits with the Open General Licence, is it pushing the terms of the licence to the limit? I dont know but like i say I do wonder.

 

There is a limited amount of shootable land in the UK and as I have said before (and been shot down by some for saying it) its all well and good a person having thousands of acrres to themselves but what about the tens or hundreds of local lads who have nowhere to shoot becasue of this?

 

Speaking from personal experience, I can see how and why there 'vermin only' clubs are springing up , where a group of lads get together to secure some shooting, That has to be a good thing as it means a groups of lads all get some shooting, not just one.

 

As I have said before this is exactly the situation i am in with my 20 man club, paying £35 a year each to have the shooting over two farms and a 50 acre wood - I doubt if any pigeon guide in the UK would pay £700 for the shooting rights, and as we have been on this land for well over 25 years and have excellent realtionships with our landlords we are pretty well protected.

 

David

[Cranfield]

Answer yes

 

 

 

I think it is a great concern myself as IMO it in danger of making what under our umebrella is pest control .

But under a commerical business which it becomes if you are taking money and earning a crust from it a sport.

I just know that in a couple of cases locally this has not been the case and the guide has loss the right to shoot over the land.

The shock on some of the cilents faces on a bit of land I shot over a couple of years back when they found out I was shooting for free and they had payed hard earned money to be out there?

Cranfield I know you must have close contact with guides and this is a subject that is not the best for some of the forum members.

But looking at the forum some member lack of of free shooting it would seem that in certain parts of the country guides are taking over the shooting rights for so called pest control and turning into more of sporting bird shoot.Some of this land that they shoot over must at some point had the average man in street shooter who has either now loss it or has to share.

Regards OTH

 

Sorry to disabuse you, but I don't have "close contact with guides", in fact I have never knowingly met one.

My comments are just commonsense observations from my own experience.

 

Since I can remember, pigeon shooters have had to contend with ( in some form or another) guides, professional pigeon shooters, vermin syndicates, the foreman's mates, etc., when trying to get some shooting.

However, this has not prevented most shooters getting some free vermin shooting.

 

In my opinion the "professional" element, be it guides or pigeon controllers, doesn't threaten the pigeon remaining on the General Licence as agricultural vermin, or risk it being turned into a commercial "game" category.

[Highlander]

IMO the reason most individuals do not find getting pigeon shooting easy is because most farmers have dealt with such ‘hobbyists’ before. They tend to promise the earth then are rarely seen out doing what was promised; keeping pigeons off the farmer’s crops! At least a professional guide will have people out most days doing the ‘vermin control’ which farmers want. Quite frankly most farmers aren’t too concerned about how many birds are shot rather that shooting is keeping the birds off his crops.

 

Often if it’s not ‘professionals’ doing the control it’s some retired chap as they have time to do it properly. Most ‘working’ men can only at best give a few hours every so often to the task and that’s not much good to farmer especially at the time of year when his crops are most vulnerable like now. And there are plenty of fair weather shooters out there! Farmer sees hordes of birds hitting his rape (in some instances half a dozen will get his heart rate going) yet no one is out shooting them.

 

What about the black stuff? How many ever go out shooting them and yet they’re just as much a pest as pigeons and not only on crops but over pigs and other livestock. Then there’s the rabbits and foxes (if farmer has a shoot and many do). And as for being outside the scope of the General Licence how’s that work then...people out shooting vermin is just what the GL is about. If you offer to do the job you’d damn well better do it or lose it. I also see on here that some consider they are doing farmer the favour by shooting over his land; WRONG! The privilege is all yours so don’t abuse it!

 

I’d also make the point that the best people clear up after themselves so farmer would have no idea they’d been except for the shooting. Not something that some guns do judging by the litter I see around the place!

 

And when all is said and done why should you not pay to shoot, you pay for pretty much everything else in life especially sports. Very few have access to free fishing, free golf, free whatever you spend your free time doing...except maybe ramblers but that’s another story!

[Pinkfooty]

I don't know how pigeon guides in England work but I imagine it is possibly much the same as Scottish goose guides. Up here it is the general situation that guides do not lease land (as there is no telling where the geese will be from one week to the next) but, rather, have loose (but exclusive) arrangements with farmers. Then if there are geese on the land when the guide does his scouting in the afternoons, he will take his clients there the next morning.

 

At present most guides are charging about £80 per Gun for a morning flight over decoys and about £30 -£40 per Gun per flight will go to the farmer. So, if a guide takes 6 Guns on to the farm on, say, 10 days in the season, the farmer might get about £2,100. But if geese don't use the farm much that year and the guide only takes his 6 clients on for one morning, then the farmer would only get about £210.

 

One thing is absolutely certain. All the commercial activity that has mushroomed in the shooting world over the past 30 years or so has hugely reduced the amount of inexpensive or free shooting that is available for ordinary local guys. The other side of that, of course, is that thousands of folk living in cities, who would otherwise have very restricted access to any shooting, can now pay for a service.

 

 

 

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Edited December 13, 2009 by Pinkfooty