CROSSMAN RAT KING

[SNAKEBITE]

There is a chance that I might be asked shortly (Tell you about it later AXE, S.L. &JJ) to clear a shed load (pardon the pun!) of feral pigeons out of some out buildings and surrounding areas.

 

The ranges are anything from 5yds to 30yds. For the shorter ranges is a 12lber in .22 with domed pellets going to be "overkill"? I go for head shots but do not want to get over penetration as it may lead to holes in the roof! I could change the pellets to flat heads but don't want to mess around with re-zeroing the gun unless I REALLY need to!

 

Is a RAT CATCHER or similar CO2 gun going to be better? I belive these are lower powered?

The last thing I want is to spend out on something that I am not going to use all the time but if this job is going to be a regular thing then it may be worth it.

[Ferret Master]

Hi,

 

Although I have no real experience with the King Ratcatcher I have heard that people don't use them over 15 yards out for rats because they don't have enough power to properly kill it at beyond that range. When I say properly kill it the pellet would still have enough energy at that range to kill it but when you think about it you only need 3ft lbs of power to kill a rabbit if you hit it in the head but that would then be saying you could use a Ratcatcher at 35 yards for Rabbits when nobody would do that would they? I think you would be best with some heavy flat or hollow points at those ranges with your S410k (best gun in the world )

I'm sure a few will disagree though so I may need to borrow your tin hat Snakebite

 

FM

Edited December 19, 2005 by Ferret Master

[SNAKEBITE]

I have been warned about the reliability of the ratcatchers as well so I may be steering well clear anyway.

What are the possibilities of body shots at that closer range? The feathers are a heck of a lot "lighter" than a woodies. I am not prepared to "experiment" to find out so advice would be appreciated.

[roblade]

I have been warned about the reliability of the ratcatchers as well so I may be steering well clear anyway.

What are the possibilities of body shots at that closer range? The feathers are a heck of a lot "lighter" than a woodies. I am not prepared to "experiment" to find out so advice would be appreciated.he

the ratty or king rat should be about the best rifle for what you want it to do, as long as you keep your rages to less than 25 yards.

 

king ratty with a red dot scope should be about the perfect set up for you

 

there is one down side about the Co2 in this weather though, and that is the number of shots, expect about 10-15 out of a normal ratty and 50-100 out of a king ratty.

 

cant say as have heard any reliability problems with either of them though, unless your talking about the build quality of a standard ratty (scope and mount blocks)

 

ROB

[1 of 5]

A Rattie will be ideal as Rob says though frankly you'll get a far better gun for less money by getting a QB78. Only "reliability" issue with the Crosman is again as Rob says the problox which are complete garbage. The QB has proper dovetails. CO2 can be hard to silence properly so don't skimp on a cheap silencer for it. The Crosman red tip is in the comedy league.

[Axe]

A-up Snakebite,

 

My old and trusty Meteor is the tool for the job. If ya need a hand fill me in, otherwise, your welcome to borrow it.

[BOLTA]

Hi,

 

When I say properly kill it the pellet would still have enough energy at that range to kill it but when you think about it you only need 3ft lbs of power to kill a rabbit if you hit it in the head

 

FM

Hi,

 

Where exactly do you have this information from ? And is it a statement you can really trust in every case ?

 

Now, I would like to get down to the bottom of this statement so we can all have the truth on the table here. What I have learn and tried over the years is that this statement does not hold ANY form of water.

 

The main thing that kills a quarry is internal destruction of tissue, veins and vessels - nothing else. A MINIMUM power level for penetration and reaching the internal organs is NOT the answer to a clean kill - "not a chance there, mate" ! You always looking for maximum destruction levels to get the clean kills you are after and THAT is that.

Just for minute think about a pointed pellet shot through a rabbits brain with a entering energy level of approx. 3 to 4 ft/lbs. Do you really think this pellet will get you a lot of very clean kills ? No, you absolutely right - it is the destruction level that really counts in every case regarding killing power.

 

I think it is the time now if folks that comes with a such statement like this that they also should put some hard information on the table for backing such statements up. In my clear opinion, we all (also the Anti-gun people) would like the truth to come freely out in the open then we speak. Not for getting any personal in this case but such statements put every single airgunner in a bad spot - meaning that those who should really know a great deal about killing quarry DO NOT know anything at all.

 

Cheers,

Bolta

[Axe]

Getting the thread back on track i'd say Snakebite, that if you go with a hollowpoint pellet and re-zero 'counting the clicks' you should be able to reset to your original setting by reversing the clicks and confirming with a few shots to target. I have never looked into hollowpoint pellets, but if you can find a 'softer' pellet this may well help as well.

 

Inspecting the barn will certainly give you foresight as to where your pellet could potentially go. Try finding a position to shoot from that will ensure a miss or over-penetrating pellet does not hit the roof if possible, or at least at an angle that wont do any damage to the roof, or anything else in the barn as it will more than likely richoche. And if possible, find a peice of similar roof material that you can shoot at to see what will happen if you do unfortunately miss.

 

Hope this makes sense.

[king ratcatcher]

get a king ratcatcher,or ratcatcher,you will not be disapointed,i stated of shooting with a king ratcatcher,hence the name,and i shot many ferals and rats,and alot of crows at 20 yards,and ive even had the normell ratcatcher and killed crows to 20 yards.stick pellets as like hollow points and flat heads through it,there the most accurate.

[BOLTA]

Hi again,

 

Just for being so annoying as I can be.

 

It seems to me that people is confussing the word "over-penetration" with a shoot through shot. These two things ain´t the same thing, Gentlemen !

 

Over-penetration means clearly and without any confussing that a pellet goes right through your quarry without making enough damage inside to get you a clean kill - and THATS it !

A shoot through situation means that a pellet passes right through your quarry and either kill cleanly and instantly or not at all.

 

I don´t why people always are mixing these two cases but again I can only guess this is because the lack of experience and understanding of things that is really going on.

 

Cheers,

Bolta

[Axe]

It seems to me that people is confussing the word "over-penetration" with a shoot through shot. These two things ain´t the same thing, Gentlemen !

 

Over-penetration means clearly and without any confussing that a pellet goes right through your quarry without making enough damage inside to get you a clean kill - and THATS it !

A shoot through situation means that a pellet passes right through your quarry and either kill cleanly and instantly or not at all.

 

I don´t why people always are mixing these two cases but again I can only guess this is because the lack of experience and understanding of things that is really going on.

 

Cheers,

Bolta

Actually Bolta you are completely wrong on this. 'Over Penetration' is the 'yelp' my missus sometimes gives out.

 

Or should we call you Ali G, Quote: "People is con-fuss-ing".

[1 of 5]

Over-penetration means clearly and without any confussing that a pellet goes right through your quarry without making enough damage inside to get you a clean kill - and THATS it !

A shoot through situation means that a pellet passes right through your quarry and either kill cleanly and instantly or not at all.

Please point me to the dictionary that covers these definitions.

[SNAKEBITE]

Over-penetration means clearly and without any confussing that a pellet goes right through your quarry without making enough damage inside to get you a clean kill - and THATS it !

A shoot through situation means that a pellet passes right through your quarry and either kill cleanly and instantly or not at all.

Over penetration means it goes through. Period. What it does on the way through is irrelevant.

[Ferret Master]

Hi,

 

I have heard these power quotes from several anonomous people on the forum and I think I have read it in some of Pete Wadeson's work. I agree that it's the shock and internal damage and not the penertration that kills the quarry although the extent obviously varries from species to species and individual animals in that species.

However I prefer .22 because it causes more shock from a heavier projectile and more internal damage as it doesn't 'over penertrate' and seems to do more damage inside. .177 is better for woodpigeons though hence the old saying .177 for feather .22 for fur because it travls through a full crop better.

 

Now that I have entered the .177 .22 debate I am definitely going to need to borrow your tin hat Snakebite.

 

FM

[roblade]

how ironic that the .177 or .22 debate should flow into this thread

 

this thread was originaly about one of the only air rifles (ok so i know its Co2 LOL) out there that only comes in .22.

 

i think its safe to say (as i have used both .177 and .22) as long as the shooter does his part there is no difference between either cal.

 

ROB

 

PS still think the ratty would be a good rifle for the job you want LOL but then again there nothing wrong with the QB78 either though it is a little bigger

[BOLTA]

Over-penetration means clearly and without any confussing that a pellet goes right through your quarry without making enough damage inside to get you a clean kill - and  THATS it !

A shoot through situation means that a pellet passes right through your quarry and either kill cleanly and instantly or not at all.

Over penetration means it goes through. Period. What it does on the way through is irrelevant.

Hi,

 

If you do not separate these two terms you will not be able to use any of them. I mean here that I many times have heard people saying they got over-penetration and not got a clean kill. Well, most of my shots do over-penetrate BUT I get clean kills - how can this be, may I ask ?

 

Therefor, if you separate these terms you get a clean meaning for both terms without any form of confussing.

Therefor I have shoot through situation with clean kills and I would guess that many other airgunners would have the same situation. But people who do not get clean kills have OVER-PENETRATION if they shoot completely through their quarry.

 

See, this way we all know what we are talking about, right ?

 

Cheers,

Bolta

[SNAKEBITE]

O.K. I am perhaps not the most articulate person this side of the Mississippi river but in my head I know what I am on about, getting it over is where I have trouble.

 

But here goes.......................

 

A shot hits a pigeons head and goes straight through. There is little shock transfer due to the lack of volume in the impact area. The pigeon goes down no problem. This is over penetration as the pellet has exited the target.

 

A shot hits a pigeon at the very bottom of the breast and travels up through the body cavity and exit just above the wing on the opposite side of the entry. The shock transfer is much greater and causes the pigeon to drop straight away.

This is also over penetration due to the pellet exiting although the energy retained would be much less.

 

The above scenarios are ones that I have personaly experienced. The second was however a bad shot on my part and one that was just "lucky" to have dropped it.

 

According to the Oxford dictionary PENETRATE is a verb that "is to find access into or THROUGH"

OVER can be a prefix meaning "excessively"

 

Therefore "over penetrate" seems to be the perfect description.

[BOLTA]

Hi,

 

I have heard these power quotes from several anonomous people on the forum and I think I have read it in some of Pete Wadeson's work. I agree that it's the shock and internal damage and not the penertration that kills the quarry although the extent obviously varries from species to species and individual animals in that species.

However I prefer .22 because it causes more shock from a heavier projectile and more internal damage as it doesn't 'over penertrate' and seems to do more damage inside. .177 is better for woodpigeons though hence the old saying .177 for feather .22 for fur because it travls through a full crop better.

 

Now that I have entered the .177 .22 debate I am definitely going to need to borrow your tin hat Snakebite.

 

FM

Hi,

 

You are talking about shock effect with airguns. No shock effect can happen with airguns because of the low velocity involved here. Forget all about hydrostatic and hydraulic shock effect because they can absolutely not happen with airguns - only with high velocity firearms.

 

The only shock effect you will get with airguns is blood shock from blood loss. Again, the main cause of death of a quarry is the destruction level you make inside. Nothing else matters in this case expect that you of course have to hit inside the killzones to get clean kills.

 

You are mentioning .22 vs. .177 where .22 creating more damages inside the quarry than .177. Yes, normal this is the case, not always, but most of times it is correct. A .22 pellet may carry more energy with it downrange but this extra energy should be look upon like the energy needed for penetration and reaching the vital internal parts of a quarry PLUS making a pellet expands (if expandable type) to get you a larger wound channel, meaning a faster/cleaner kill.

From my own experience with sub 12 ft/lbs guns I have found that there is not so much difference between .177 and .22 in killing performance, although I personal feel that the .22 comes out as a small winner of these two.

The case is completely another business with FAC powered airguns. Here, I would always say that the larger calibers (.22 and .25) are the best small bore calibers you can use for hunting/pest control legal airgun quarry. No, doubt about that !

 

Cheers,

Bolta

[1 of 5]

Bolta is spot on when he says that shock value is zero with an airgun. Penetration to vital tissue and it's destruction is all that kills. Pass throughs / over-penetration or whatever term you wish to use are no great problem as the pellet will have done as much destruction as it can on the way through. Sure the pellet won't have necessarily expanded as much as it may otherwise but it will have travelled the length of the vitals and not just halfway.

http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi-hwfe.pdf

It's in reference to handguns but applies even more so to airguns .

[Ferret Master]

Hi,

 

I have heard these power quotes from several anonomous people on the forum and I think I have read it in some of Pete Wadeson's work. I agree that it's the shock and internal damage and not the penertration that kills the quarry although the extent obviously varries from species to species and individual animals in that species.

However I prefer .22 because it causes more shock from a heavier projectile and more internal damage as it doesn't 'over penertrate' and seems to do more damage inside. .177 is better for woodpigeons though hence the old saying .177 for feather .22 for fur because it travls through a full crop better.

 

Now that I have entered the .177 .22 debate I am definitely going to need to borrow your tin hat Snakebite.

 

FM

Hi,

 

You are talking about shock effect with airguns. No shock effect can happen with airguns because of the low velocity involved here. Forget all about hydrostatic and hydraulic shock effect because they can absolutely not happen with airguns - only with high velocity firearms.

 

The only shock effect you will get with airguns is blood shock from blood loss. Again, the main cause of death of a quarry is the destruction level you make inside. Nothing else matters in this case expect that you of course have to hit inside the killzones to get clean kills.

 

You are mentioning .22 vs. .177 where .22 creating more damages inside the quarry than .177. Yes, normal this is the case, not always, but most of times it is correct. A .22 pellet may carry more energy with it downrange but this extra energy should be look upon like the energy needed for penetration and reaching the vital internal parts of a quarry PLUS making a pellet expands (if expandable type) to get you a larger wound channel, meaning a faster/cleaner kill.

From my own experience with sub 12 ft/lbs guns I have found that there is not so much difference between .177 and .22 in killing performance, although I personal feel that the .22 comes out as a small winner of these two.

The case is completely another business with FAC powered airguns. Here, I would always say that the larger calibers (.22 and .25) are the best small bore calibers you can use for hunting/pest control legal airgun quarry. No, doubt about that !

 

Cheers,

Bolta

Hi,

 

When I said shock I meant hitting power. The .22 being a heavier projectile hits harder. It does do more damage inside and if you accidently chest shoot a Rabbit it is more likely to stop it because it doesn't 'whiz' straight through but does more damage inside. This is more the case at close range though. Although the .22 has more down range energy the .177 has more penertration at longer range.

 

FM

[P03]

Hi,

 

When I say properly kill it the pellet would still have enough energy at that range to kill it but when you think about it you only need 3ft lbs of power to kill a rabbit if you hit it in the head

 

FM

Hi,

 

Where exactly do you have this information from ? And is it a statement you can really trust in every case ?

 

Now, I would like to get down to the bottom of this statement so we can all have the truth on the table here. What I have learn and tried over the years is that this statement does not hold ANY form of water.

 

The main thing that kills a quarry is internal destruction of tissue, veins and vessels - nothing else. A MINIMUM power level for penetration and reaching the internal organs is NOT the answer to a clean kill - "not a chance there, mate" ! You always looking for maximum destruction levels to get the clean kills you are after and THAT is that.

Just for minute think about a pointed pellet shot through a rabbits brain with a entering energy level of approx. 3 to 4 ft/lbs. Do you really think this pellet will get you a lot of very clean kills ? No, you absolutely right - it is the destruction level that really counts in every case regarding killing power.

 

I think it is the time now if folks that comes with a such statement like this that they also should put some hard information on the table for backing such statements up. In my clear opinion, we all (also the Anti-gun people) would like the truth to come freely out in the open then we speak. Not for getting any personal in this case but such statements put every single airgunner in a bad spot - meaning that those who should really know a great deal about killing quarry DO NOT know anything at all.

 

Cheers,

Bolta

Bolta,

Have a look at this site all your questions answered :thumbs: http://www.beeman.com/calselect.htm

Regards

P03

[BOLTA]

Hi,

 

When I say properly kill it the pellet would still have enough energy at that range to kill it but when you think about it you only need 3ft lbs of power to kill a rabbit if you hit it in the head

 

FM

Hi,

 

Where exactly do you have this information from ? And is it a statement you can really trust in every case ?

 

Now, I would like to get down to the bottom of this statement so we can all have the truth on the table here. What I have learn and tried over the years is that this statement does not hold ANY form of water.

 

The main thing that kills a quarry is internal destruction of tissue, veins and vessels - nothing else. A MINIMUM power level for penetration and reaching the internal organs is NOT the answer to a clean kill - "not a chance there, mate" ! You always looking for maximum destruction levels to get the clean kills you are after and THAT is that.

Just for minute think about a pointed pellet shot through a rabbits brain with a entering energy level of approx. 3 to 4 ft/lbs. Do you really think this pellet will get you a lot of very clean kills ? No, you absolutely right - it is the destruction level that really counts in every case regarding killing power.

 

I think it is the time now if folks that comes with a such statement like this that they also should put some hard information on the table for backing such statements up. In my clear opinion, we all (also the Anti-gun people) would like the truth to come freely out in the open then we speak. Not for getting any personal in this case but such statements put every single airgunner in a bad spot - meaning that those who should really know a great deal about killing quarry DO NOT know anything at all.

 

Cheers,

Bolta

Bolta,

Have a look at this site all your questions answered :thumbs: http://www.beeman.com/calselect.htm

Regards

P03

Hi,

 

First of all, this was what I feared !

 

You are coming with some undocmented internet information about killing powers expressed in ft/lbs but what can you use it for and most important can you trust this kind of information ?

I would say that these power levels is a unprecise guide line. As I wrote in another thread only testing on live quarry with your own particular airgun/pellet combination at different ranges will give the real and best information about the killing performance of your particular airgun system. You can not read this kind of information on the internet or in books - you must YOURSELF go out and get the experience. This is absolutely the best thing you can do.

 

I can put in that I myself have got a lot more information by simply testing than I ever got from several books written about hunting with airguns. I learned for example that high power FAC airguns have much higher killing performance than non-FAC guns at different ranges and on different quarry. And what kind of results you are getting with different pellet types at different ranges. I could go on here....

This kind of information is much more valuable for any hunter/pest controller out there than some "few power levels flying around in the air", so of speak. And I would suggest everyone who wants to get better in killing performance to only go the testing way and almost forget about the books (use the books or internet information as only unprecisely guide lines).

 

Cheers,

Bolta

[BOLTA]

Hi again,

 

After reading the above linked page (Beeman website) I will say for sure that this information is not trustworthy simply because no real information is on the table. The word "shock" is also mentioned without any form for further explanation.

 

Just remember, this text is written years ago where people did not have quite the same experience as many have now. Not to say that the information is completely out of line and outdated but I would personal not use this information on that page for anything. Your own testing will give much better knowledge than this webpage.

 

Cheers,

Bolta

[Axe]

I would suggest everyone who wants to get better in killing performance to only go the testing way and almost forget about the books (use the books or internet information as only unprecisely guide lines).

So what your saying is that all you have strived to get accross here, is just unprecise guide lines!!!

 

Sorry Bolta, but you have to agree, what you put was quite funny. :thumbs:

[BOLTA]

I would suggest everyone who wants to get better in killing performance to only go the testing way and almost forget about the books (use the books or internet information as only unprecisely guide lines).

So what your saying is that all you have strived to get accross here, is just unprecise guide lines!!!

 

Sorry Bolta, but you have to agree, what you put was quite funny. :thumbs:

Hi,

 

Sorry, I don´t get what you mean by that ?

 

What I am saying quite clearly is that you should not trust any printed information before yourself has tested it to be completely true in every single shooting case. Or else you are fooling yourself and you probably don´t get any better in that particular performance.

 

If I understand you correctly in this matter, you are thinking that I have found the golden way here. Not quite true, I can tell you. BUT I have got better in killing performance simply because of testing instead of reading unreliable books and information found on the internet. You are fooling yourself, Axe if you think such unreliable information is better than your own testing of your particular airgun system.

 

By the way, if anyone did read the linked Beeman page you will in the end of text actually read that this information stated there is just GUIDE LINES and nothing else.

 

Cheers,

Bolta

Edited December 22, 2005 by BOLTA