dog is shaking dummy and running in circles round me.

[flyingfisherman]

Hmm, well, dog is a black lab, 10 months old coming up, been doing heaps of obedience stuff with her and have got to a stage where i can stop her upto about 30-40yds away and sit her up, walk 100yds away etc, she walks to heel on and off lead well. I did a bit of dummy work with her a few months back, dummy in river and fields, she took to it like a labrador so i eased back on the retrieving as i was told i was running before i could walk. Now ive come back to retrieving, she shakes the dummy like theres no tomorrow and also is playing games. ive tried throwing it while shes on the lead, when sent for it, i used the lead to 'encourage' her to come back.

 

Has anyone got any info or youtube clips to guide me for BASIC retriever training? Ive tried not making a fuss when she starts playing and walking away but this doesnt seem to be getting me anywhere. Im a bit anxious to get her back to where she was 2 months ago really. I wish i hadnt stopped..

[p-a-s]

I think it a case of going back to basics im afraid,try getting the dog to retrieve from a narrow passage with out her being able fo get behind you.Failing that sit her near her favourite sleeping place,throw the dummy and get down low encouraging her in to you.Dont try and get perfect deliveries or instill any steadiness(you can fine tune later)just concentrate on making the dog excited at coming back to you.Dont over do the retrieves either 1 every other day or so is plenty for now.Also dont try and get her retrieving where she can get distracted ie no gamey ground,other dogs running around,kids playing etc,final bit of advice if the dog wont do it on your yard,he aint gonna do it in the field.Hope this is of some help.

[Kron]

i've been having the same problem with my black lab. Looking at your signature mine was born the day before yours so they are virtually identical in age!

 

i worked only on the delivery for a week or so. virtually handed her the dummy and when she had held it for a while took it back off her following the release command. if she held it and gave when told she got plenty of praise. if she dropped it i said nothing but picked the dummy up and gave it back to her. if she shook it or ran round with it i told her off.

 

only just started back with the retrieving and, although its too early to say for definite, it does seem to be getting better. although the snow here has made her regress back to a mental age of about 4 weeks!

[mudpatten]

You need to try something slightly different from what you`ve been doing as it is this that the dog has learned it can disobey and that you cannot correct it.

 

Send the dog for the retrieve as usual.

 

Assuming the outrun, pick up and return are acceptable, don`t wait for the dog to start shaking the dummy or "playing games" which I take to mean he is not returning to hand but circling you and generally ********* about.

 

At the moment you decide is opportune,turn your back on the dog and walk smartly away from it whilst calling it to heel.

 

Make no attempt to take the dummy from the dog until it has been walking to heel for a few yards with plenty of encouragement then gently relieve the dog of the dummy whilst it is still walking.

 

Try this and let us know what happens.

[kent]

oh been there, try and be totally calm don't scold definatly don't follow just plain ignoor. Now get your back up against a fence or wall and wait a long time if thats what is required. Keep your hands away from the prize the dog must give it up if the game is to continue. When you do get it chuck another imediate do the same

[mudpatten]

Any luck with curing the problem yet?

[happychappy246]

i've got exactly the same problem and my yellow labs 1yr 6 months he will bring it back to me if ive got treats but if i dont he'll run circles round me does my bloody head in lol i can sit him on the whistle at about 5 yrds and get it off him myself its just getting him to bring it to me thats the problem.

[flyingfisherman]

Thanks for the advice guys, Ive gone back to a tennis ball which she doesnt shake. Ive also been encouraging her with a treat. She is bringing it straight back but dropping it at my feet. Im not to worried about the delivery yet, just need to stop her playing the goat. Its not helping with all this snow as she has never seen it before and acts like a loon! I shall keep going with the tennis ball and see if i can instill the basic retrieve, then move back to the dummy.

 

I think a big part of it is that shes still a puppy and needs to play. Just not at the jeopardy of ruining the training.

[kent]

I shouldnt fret about the shaking thing, my GWP is 2yrs in Jan and will still shake dummies about when the mood takes him yet retrieves live and dead game with a soft mouth with no shaking and carries them with real reverence. He was a pain to sort on the delivery issues your having also, the trick realy is to ignoor and wait and don't snatch at it. The dog is just trying to add new dimentions to a favourite game all will come good

[cracker]

I shouldnt fret about the shaking thing, my GWP is 2yrs in Jan and will still shake dummies about when the mood takes him yet retrieves live and dead game with a soft mouth with no shaking and carries them with real reverence. He was a pain to sort on the delivery issues your having also, the trick realy is to ignoor and wait and don't snatch at it. The dog is just trying to add new dimentions to a favourite game all will come good

 

Ignore it at your peril even with dummies - the shaking is a dominance thing and also an instinctive kill gesture - that needs to be trained out of them if your aim is a biddable, compliant retriever. That doesn't mean they won't get you the bird or bunny after shaking it, but it will be dead and perhaps (a strong perhaps) mangled too. A soft mouth with game after exhibiting the shaking with an inanimate object is rare in my experience.

 

Hmm, well, dog is a black lab, 10 months old coming up, been doing heaps of obedience stuff with her and have got to a stage where i can stop her upto about 30-40yds away and sit her up, walk 100yds away etc, she walks to heel on and off lead well. I did a bit of dummy work with her a few months back, dummy in river and fields, she took to it like a labrador so i eased back on the retrieving as i was told i was running before i could walk. Now ive come back to retrieving, she shakes the dummy like theres no tomorrow and also is playing games. ive tried throwing it while shes on the lead, when sent for it, i used the lead to 'encourage' her to come back.

 

"Heaps of obedience stuff" - does that cover the recall even if at the expense of the retrieve? Yes, it's obedience uber alle if you're training a retriever. They'll all retrieve - it's in their very name, remember? - but not all of them will return with what they've got. "Return" is the operative word. The way it's always worked for me - and for many others - is using a check cord (long line) then sending send the dog for the retrieve; as soon as its lips land on whatever they're retrieving, blow your "come-in" whistle or command "Here!" whilst giving a continuous reeling of the check cord. If the dog doesn't have possession of the retrieve, or drops it en route back to you, all the better. The dog is reeled all the way back to you - and it learns that the recall supersedes the retrieve when it comes to how you want it to retrieve. Not the dog retrieving for itself.

 

Plus, they may come to understand that the faster they get back to you with the retrieve,

 

 

the sooner you might send them for another.

 

 

MG

[WGD]

Thanks for the advice guys, Ive gone back to a tennis ball which she doesnt shake. Ive also been encouraging her with a treat. She is bringing it straight back but dropping it at my feet. Im not to worried about the delivery yet, just need to stop her playing the goat. Its not helping with all this snow as she has never seen it before and acts like a loon! I shall keep going with the tennis ball and see if i can instill the basic retrieve, then move back to the dummy.

 

I think a big part of it is that shes still a puppy and needs to play. Just not at the jeopardy of ruining the training.

 

Couple of thoughts.

 

1. I agree with cracker, stop the dog shaking anything, it is a kill instinct and could easily lead to hard mouth. Incidentally kent, I wouldn't be too complacent about your dog's soft handling of game, he is young is he not (?) and the breed are not known for soft mouth.

 

2. Good idea going back to working with something she doesn't shake.

 

3. If she's preoccupied with the snow it is distracting her, leave any meaningful training for another day "set the dog up to succeed".

 

4. "she's a puppy" she is young but bad habits developed now will only get worse.

 

5. When you go back to dummies, try them at 2 or 3 yards so you can get to her if she starts shaking the dummy. Don't be too harsh, raise your voice and move in and IMMEDIATELY soften your voice and move away, encouraging her into you with the retrieve, when she stops shaking the dummy.

 

It's kid gloves with this one mate, too harsh and you could dampen her enthusiasm for retrieving, too soft and you could end up with a dog with a mouth more like a terrier than a retriever.

 

Good luck

Edited December 2, 2010 by WGD

[flyingfisherman]

Cheers guys,

 

Gonna wait a bit with the retrieving until the snow is gone or she gets over it! I will continue with the ball and use a check lead. I think this is probably the way to go. I dont know where she has got this shaking thing from as she doesnt have toys she is allowed to do that with and she is never allowed to wrestle with me and a toy. She was being perfect a few months back.. :(

[kent]

firstly GWP are not nessasarilly "hard mouthed" as a breed in the UK any more than any other gundog breed but my comments are however directly meant to encourage someone in what can be a flustrating process, though i realise some will have raised and trained thier own dogs without any issues shaking is simply the dog forfilling a natural instinct through play in this case and trying to get his pall to join in my opinion- yeah call it dominance if you wish as the dog is trying it on for sure but please don't slander my own dog as having a hard mouth or the breed generally as he retrieves both wounded and dead game from rabbits to geese without a single mark or blemish, yet will still have a little wiggle on dummies every now and again when he is feeling giddy (the trick with my own dog is not to let him see you get wound up by it or he realy will go to town with it ) and he realy does know the difference between dummies (which he now sees as a game) and real game (which he sees as his place in the team). I think all this misconception comes from the GWP working on Large game however it is perfectly possible to have a dog that will finish large game without crushing birds and ground game and there are plenty Labs out there that do exactly that as well as GWP. The guys issue is being messed about on delivery why start a debate and 2nd worry about Hard mouth ? If the dog is entered to real game correctly there is no greater likelyhood of squished game. Any one who doubts this only has to watch puppies at play, yes even future champions will wiggle shake and pull in play!

One thing that is true of the GWP is they can wind you up a treat if you let them due to thier high intelligence and constantly questioning mind and are very good at finding a chink in your armour. For that reason i shouldn't recomend one to anyone who thinks you can train all gundogs staight from a book

[hutchie the white hunter]

I shouldnt fret about the shaking thing, my GWP is 2yrs in Jan and will still shake dummies about when the mood takes him yet retrieves live and dead game with a soft mouth with no shaking and carries them with real reverence. He was a pain to sort on the delivery issues your having also, the trick realy is to ignoor and wait and don't snatch at it. The dog is just trying to add new dimentions to a favourite game all will come good

lolol :lol: i know

[hutchie the white hunter]

firstly GWP are not nessasarilly "hard mouthed" as a breed in the UK any more than any other gundog breed but my comments are however directly meant to encourage someone in what can be a flustrating process, though i realise some will have raised and trained thier own dogs without any issues shaking is simply the dog forfilling a natural instinct through play in this case and trying to get his pall to join in my opinion- yeah call it dominance if you wish as the dog is trying it on for sure but please don't slander my own dog as having a hard mouth or the breed generally as he retrieves both wounded and dead game from rabbits to geese without a single mark or blemish, yet will still have a little wiggle on dummies every now and again when he is feeling giddy (the trick with my own dog is not to let him see you get wound up by it or he realy will go to town with it ) and he realy does know the difference between dummies (which he now sees as a game) and real game (which he sees as his place in the team). I think all this misconception comes from the GWP working on Large game however it is perfectly possible to have a dog that will finish large game without crushing birds and ground game and there are plenty Labs out there that do exactly that as well as GWP. The guys issue is being messed about on delivery why start a debate and 2nd worry about Hard mouth ? If the dog is entered to real game correctly there is no greater likelyhood of squished game. Any one who doubts this only has to watch puppies at play, yes even future champions will wiggle shake and pull in play!

One thing that is true of the GWP is they can wind you up a treat if you let them due to thier high intelligence and constantly questioning mind and are very good at finding a chink in your armour. For that reason i shouldn't recomend one to anyone who thinks you can train all gundogs staight from a book

well said i could not have said better theres defo far too mutch inbetween those ears

[WGD]

firstly GWP are not nessasarilly "hard mouthed" as a breed in the UK any more than any other gundog breed but my comments are however directly meant to encourage someone in what can be a flustrating process, though i realise some will have raised and trained thier own dogs without any issues shaking is simply the dog forfilling a natural instinct through play in this case and trying to get his pall to join in my opinion- yeah call it dominance if you wish as the dog is trying it on for sure but please don't slander my own dog as having a hard mouth or the breed generally as he retrieves both wounded and dead game from rabbits to geese without a single mark or blemish, yet will still have a little wiggle on dummies every now and again when he is feeling giddy (the trick with my own dog is not to let him see you get wound up by it or he realy will go to town with it ) and he realy does know the difference between dummies (which he now sees as a game) and real game (which he sees as his place in the team). I think all this misconception comes from the GWP working on Large game however it is perfectly possible to have a dog that will finish large game without crushing birds and ground game and there are plenty Labs out there that do exactly that as well as GWP. The guys issue is being messed about on delivery why start a debate and 2nd worry about Hard mouth ? If the dog is entered to real game correctly there is no greater likelyhood of squished game. Any one who doubts this only has to watch puppies at play, yes even future champions will wiggle shake and pull in play!

One thing that is true of the GWP is they can wind you up a treat if you let them due to thier high intelligence and constantly questioning mind and are very good at finding a chink in your armour. For that reason i shouldn't recomend one to anyone who thinks you can train all gundogs staight from a book

 

I'm giving advice mate, and it's only my opinion.

 

I've shot over some of the best HPRs in the country, and train/have trained with some of the best handlers, so don't start preaching about the breed and what they do or don't do just because you happen to have one. Hard mouth in GSPs and GWPs is an issue, fact, BUT good breeding and handling is eroding the problem. I hope yours does well for you

 

Anyway, as you rightly point out the OP was looking for advice on his particular issue and I have given him a few of my thoughts.

Edited December 2, 2010 by WGD

[hutchie the white hunter]

I'm giving advice mate, and it's only my opinion.

 

I've shot over some of the best HPRs in the country, and train/have trained with some of the best handlers, so don't start preaching about the breed and what they do or don't do just because you happen to have one. Hard mouth in GSPs and GWPs is an issue, fact, BUT good breeding and handling is eroding the problem. I hope yours does well for you

 

Anyway, as you rightly point out the OP was looking for advice on his particular issue and I have given him a few of my thoughts.

also true

[cracker]

I'm giving advice mate, and it's only my opinion.

 

I've shot over some of the best HPRs in the country, and train/have trained with some of the best handlers, so don't start preaching about the breed and what they do or don't do just because you happen to have one. Hard mouth in GSPs and GWPs is an issue, fact, BUT good breeding and handling is eroding the problem. I hope yours does well for you

 

Anyway, as you rightly point out the OP was looking for advice on his particular issue and I have given him a few of my thoughts.

 

You be on the money again, WGD - it ain't confined to Blighty, either. I'm fond of both for versatility, appearance and drive, but the kurzhaar and draat are two of the roughest-mouthed gundogs I've worked with, and I'm still waiting to see the first one pick a goose. I always felt it was the pressure training put into them for retrieving that led to their mouthing problems.

 

Now I could sell you a soft-mouthed wonder (the softest) from the auld sod though ...

 

 

MG

[WGD]

You be on the money again, WGD

 

That's twice in a week, I'm going for a lie down

[kent]

I'm giving advice mate, and it's only my opinion.

 

I've shot over some of the best HPRs in the country, and train/have trained with some of the best handlers, so don't start preaching about the breed and what they do or don't do just because you happen to have one. Hard mouth in GSPs and GWPs is an issue, fact, BUT good breeding and handling is eroding the problem. I hope yours does well for you

 

Anyway, as you rightly point out the OP was looking for advice on his particular issue and I have given him a few of my thoughts.

 

The shorthair and the wire are completely different dogs firstly - not just coat variations(don't be fooled by the name) , you show your obvious lack of know how by lumping them together i might say. Please just leave it out if you havent owned one and "hard mouth" is mainly about entering IMO. As for the best in the country do you mean Rory major and Chris grey or are you just sounding off? Magnus (ChrisGreys Dog)is the sire of my dog and Rory has helped enormously with his training

[WGD]

The shorthair and the wire are completely different dogs firstly - not just coat variations(don't be fooled by the name) , you show your obvious lack of know how by lumping them together i might say. Please just leave it out if you havent owned one and "hard mouth" is mainly about entering IMO. As for the best in the country do you mean Rory major and Chris grey or are you just sounding off? Magnus (ChrisGreys Dog)is the sire of my dog and Rory has helped enormously with his training

 

So tell me hard mouth is not an issue in both breeds??? I differentiated because they are two breeds, rather than calling them German Pointers (because that would include the GLP also, wouldn't it?).

 

As I said, best of luck with yours

 

I have no desire to enter thread tennis, and I'm not into name dropping either, especially without the persons consent.

Edited December 3, 2010 by WGD