Lead Ammunition Group (LAG) Update in Sporting Gun

[Salopian]

Interesting article in the new edition of Sporting Gun written by Rob Gray of CA.

It appears that Defra after spending £60,000 of tax payers money on useless research now cannot afford to pay the secretarial expenses for this group???

Also interesting to note that BASC were commissioned to supply data over a two year period (did BASC invoice Defra?).

But my understanding of the report is that in truth WWT & RSPB are pulling the strings and we are being shafted finally.

But can I ask BASC why they continue twiddle their thumbs and not refute these claims when ten years after they said they would support a lead ban if a suitable, economic, viable alternative to lead was provided, when clearly ten years later it has not been.

Why can Scots shoot waterfowl over land with lead and Englishmen cannot?

Come on BASC it is time to get down off the fence.

[David BASC]

Not withstand what Rob Gray writes in his article in Sporting Gun, the facts and details of what the LAG have done and are going to do are on the LAG web site.

 

http://www.leadammunitiongroup.co.uk/

 

No one organisation on the LAG is ‘pulling the strings’ nor can they, if you look at how the LAG is set up and managed all evidence has to be reviewed, regardless of the source.

 

You may remember a couple of years ago, the Food Standards Agency (FSA) were approached by the RSPB (via a letter) alerting them to the ‘risk’ of lead in shot game. The FSA did a study, and the report was published in 2009.

 

Overall, the study found that the estimated dietary exposure to metals and

other elements measured in this survey did not pose a significant risk to

consumer safety.

 

BASC is most certainly not sitting on the fence! Nor did we ever say we would support a lead ban!!

 

We have said for decades that we will robustly fight any further restrictions on the use of lead shot.

 

You may know it was BASC that was central to the delay of the implementation of the lead shot ban for almost a decade; this was to allow the cartridge manufacturers time to develop effective NTS loads.

 

Also it was BASC that had some of the English restrictions lifted after a few years.

 

During this 12 or so year period, when the pressure was really on and when the AEWA were pushing very hard indeed for international compliance with a ban on lead over wetlands etc, other shooting organisations that are currently claiming to be oh so very interested in lead shot were very quiet indeed, as they have been for most of the past 12-15 years…

 

There was an article in the BASC mag not so long ago asking wildflowers what NTS loads they currently use, suffice to say there is now a variety of effective loads available at a range of prices, some cheaper than lead shot.

 

Under devolution different countries can introduce different laws where they have the power so to do

 

Fact of the matter is, England, Scotland, Wales NI, there are limits on the use of lead shot, that’s the law. As responsible shooters we must abide by the law, if we fail to do so, then we will suffer the consequences.

 

David

[Guest cookoff013]

and not refute these claims when ten years after they said they would support a lead ban if a suitable, economic, viable alternative to lead was provided, when clearly ten years later it has not been.

 

that economic alternate increased 30% in 2 years and is as expensive as cheap lead cartridges.

3" "alternate" cost up to 10x more than lead, it just end up with restrictions getting tighter and tighter.

 

i`m more interested about whether basc could get the cip to relax some of the rules, making high performance "alternate" ammunition available here.

[Guest cookoff013]

There was an article in the BASC mag not so long ago asking wildflowers what NTS loads they currently use, suffice to say there is now a variety of effective loads available at a range of prices, some cheaper than lead shot.

 

Fact of the matter is, England, Scotland, Wales NI, there are limits on the use of lead shot, that’s the law. As responsible shooters we must abide by the law, if we fail to do so, then we will suffer the consequences.

 

David

 

david,

this key issue is very important to shooters. there is a variety of NTS loads out there, at a range of prices too, but some are not cheaper than lead. i find that statement totally false, i`ve cost calculated nearly all nontoxics, powershot, tungsten, hevishot, steel, niceshot, bismuth,itx,itm, and none of them have come close to the cost of loading a lead cartridge. this is from a handloading point of view. factory loads are nearly in excess of £1.50 a shot. steel is even more expensive than lead.(for a like-for like cartridge, hanloaded and factory)

 

can you please tell us where this cheap effective alternate is? i`ve been looking for the past 7 years, all have come up more than lead price.

i`d really like a internet link to this cheap effective alternate.

 

i bought some bismuth years ago, cost of £1 a pop. i can safely say i`d never use them on game again. they are awful.

 

simply nontoxics are not available. i went to several shops and was "very ill advised" no-one stocks nontoxic shot at all.

[David BASC]

Of course it’s an important subject, that’s why its been so high on the BASC agenda for decades, not just the last few months!

 

As I said, there are a range of NTS and a range of price and some, only some not all, are cheaper than lead.

 

Bismuth, for example, is and always has been much more expensive, and prohibitively so for game / pigeon shooting in my view, but personally I keep a box for when I go duck shooting.

 

If you take a look on say the ’Just Cartridges’ web site you will see the prices for example of some wetland steel loads are below the price of similar size lead loads, for example, Eley 32g lead 5’s are at £199, Gamebore wetland / game 32g 3’s are at £179.

 

I cant agree with your statment that 'no one stocks nontoxic shot at all'

 

I think it’s a very valid point about the CIP limits on our steel loads, I do know that some UK shooters have sourced some of the US loads and are very pleased with the results.

 

David

[Guest cookoff013]

 

If you take a look on say the ’Just Cartridges’ web site you will see the prices for example of some wetland steel loads are below the price of similar size lead loads, for example, Eley 32g lead 5’s are at £199, Gamebore wetland / game 32g 3’s are at £179.

 

I cant agree with your statment that 'no one stocks nontoxic shot at all'

 

I think it’s a very valid point about the CIP limits on our steel loads, I do know that some UK shooters have sourced some of the US loads and are very pleased with the results.

 

David

 

i admit those loads are are "almost" comparable, but they offer "different" performance, i bet the lead #5s would be a better cartridge.

there was a post a few weeks back, someone stating they used steel and had a "scary" ammount of misfires. i cant say the lead shells would /would not do that but, thats not value or performance.

- this is or maybe a minimal / isolated incident, i could live with 1, in 1000, but they had 5 in 25 shells misfire.

 

i

- maybe i should rephrase, not-everyone stocks a variety, only 2 shops i know of, john forsey (he`s a nontoxic specialist) and just cartridges.

both of these shops, are specialists in their fields, "selling wildfowl shooting stuff" and "selling just cartridges"

 

are basc trying hard enough to get the cip to relax the cartridge restrictions -ie speed?

Edited December 2, 2010 by cookoff013

[al4x]

cookoff sorry but that is not my experience, any of my local gunshops stock at minimum steel, they all know what non toxic shot is, so not sure what they're putting in the water up your way

[Guest cookoff013]

when i asked them why, one shop just said there too expensive to stock. they wont sell well. and there is a minimum order they had to place.

5000 shells minimum order for nontoxic stuff. i wanted tmx (fibre), then, thats £7.5k in stocking one brand of shell. no-one would tiee up that much money in stock.

 

they wouldnt order any unless i put in a minimum order of 1000, i aing going to tie up 2k in shells. when all i want is to fire something.

 

http://www.kwacs.org.uk/nontoxic.html

 

- is that a viable alternative to lead?

 

i just felt very deflated, so i spent less money on reloading gear instead. after the first 200 or so shells, i could consider break even for nontoxic shot.

Edited December 2, 2010 by cookoff013

[al4x]

yep that sort of fine plus a conviction that should loose you your sgc and FAC I would imagine,

 

I've got a load of the steel shells that were mentioned as being problematic and have used most of them without any issue so really you can get a bad batch of lead cartridges just as easily

[Salopian]

My personal experience is that steel shot loaded to CIP regulations does not compare with a comparable Lead load.

U S steel loads are indeed quite good but only suitable for Super Magnum Proof which means buying a new gun.

Could this be why the majority of gameshoots no longer rear Duck?

There is at this moment in time Nosuitable lead shot alternative. If you want to shoot a Duck at very close range with a CIP approved steel loaded cartridge you are welcome to do so.

It is this stupid attitude to the toxicity of Lead that is sounding the death knell of Wildfowling.

David BASC, I understand that we have to be seen to obey the law to comply with European legislation etc., But if Scotland can have more leniant regulations (and remember they always have had on this issue) just by devolution then there is something drastically wrong on our doorstep.Surely BASC England & Scotland have been involved in the formation of these different rules.

The fact remains that still there is no robust scientific evidence that stands up to prove that Lead shot in Wildfowl is as big an issue as the WWT are saying.

English law says you are innocent until proven guilty. Unless it involves Lead shot where you are guilty and you will see your sport die.

Sorry to be so pigheaded but I would rather kill a good sporting Duck than maim it to fly off and die a painful death. Which happens far too often with steel shot.

BASC's and Tom Roster in the US's own research has shown that most people cannot correctly judge range. At least with Lead we never had so many pricked birds.

[mudpatten]

Cookoff,

 

Mate,you need to be really careful about what you post on an open forum. Your clumsy attempt to smear BASC has only succeeded in reinforcing what the Government already knows from the results of the investigation of the continued use of lead on ducks by the game shooting community.

 

Your factually untrue assertion that steel does`nt work and that it is unavailable from retail outlets and that the gun trade itself is ignorant of much of the legislation only gives weight to the demands to do away with lead altogether. That will cure all the ills that you have invented at a stroke!

 

Your mention of a high rate of misfires in steel shot cartridges is cheap beyond belief. I`ve fired thousands with no misfires. I suspect the chap to whom this happened needs to have his gun serviced. I have however, had a long run of misfires in a consignment of Gamebore Clear Pigeon cartridges. Should we stop using lead because of it?

 

You will be pleased to know that BASC are working hard on the CIP regulations.

 

And although I know it was not you who mentioned this, one really needs to take any statement by the CA`s spinmeister-in-chief, Robert Gray, with a pinch of salt. He inhabits a parallel universe in which the CA actually achieves what,in this world, it tries to kid you that it has.

 

P.S. wildfowling is thriving like never before.

Edited December 2, 2010 by mudpatten

[Guest cookoff013]

mud pattern,

i am in no way smearing basc, at all, that wasnt my intention.

 

i was more discussing the fact that an alternate, increased price by 30% in 2 years. it was cheap, now its "as expensive" by that rate of growth, it will be as expensive as the expensive stuff. in 2 more years the alternative shells would end up £240 /k.

 

i havent said steel doesnt work, because i know it can, i handload it, and i always shoot nontoxic shells wherever and whenever i have to.

i have never used the wrong shells. i enjoy loading them and advised a few people on loading them. i am not anti steel, or anti basc.

 

i know steel shells here, because of an imposed speed limit, manufacturers load slow shells. some being infact sub sonic. which isnt good for game.

 

i`ve fired 1000s of gamebore steel shells at clays, love `em, cheap and cheerful. i dont really care what i shoot at clays.

 

i am pleased to know basc are working hard on the cip regs. if that is lifted, then i can see steel as the only viable option.

[poontang]

There is no doubt in my mind that lead will be banned sooner rather than later.

 

The latest minutes of the LAG make sombre reading, especially with the EU commission getting involved. It seems that the final decision will, once again, rest with faceless beaurocrats in Brussels.

 

My personal opinion is that BASC and others are fighting a losing battle and putting off the inevitable. There are things going on behind the scenes already which seem to indicate a decision has already been made.

[geoffw]

Hi all,

My vermin shooting club have a meeting with a senior BASC bod in the next few weeks to discuss their approach to the LAG issue.

 

I'm pulling together a briefing document for the club, including our key lines of interest, I've already picked up some of the issues raised here but any more of your questions (keep 'em clean!) would be welcomed for inclusion...

 

Cheers

Geoff

[David BASC]

Hope your guys are looking forward to the meeting and thank you very much for the opportunity for one of the BASC team to come along and have a chat.

 

The same offer is extended to any other club or syndicate out there whether they are affiliated to BASC or not - if you want us to come along for a meeting all you have to do is ask and we will sort out with you when is best for all.

 

Best wishes to all

David