Oops Missed Again Posted February 13, 2011 Report Share Posted February 13, 2011 (edited) I feel I must buy an Italian gun to see if my views about their engineering skills can be changed. Most of there guns feel very flimsy. Pick up a silver pigeon then a 525, 1100 and 301. I like semi autos but are the Italian ones, with their high price tags, worth it? Edited February 20, 2011 by Oops Missed Again Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oops Missed Again Posted February 18, 2011 Author Report Share Posted February 18, 2011 Been having a look at the Beretta's and they don't seem to bad. Got to service one next week for will have a good look at all the innards. I might be changing my views on them!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon R Posted February 18, 2011 Report Share Posted February 18, 2011 I'm struggling a bit here. :hmm: You service guns, but describe Italian guns as flimsy and question their engineering skills. I presume you have never serviced a Beretta, Gamba, Perazzi, Abbiatico and Salvinelli or Guerini. All very well engineered and very robust. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bongo321 Posted February 19, 2011 Report Share Posted February 19, 2011 my silver pigeon is far from flimsy ???? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silpig5 Posted February 19, 2011 Report Share Posted February 19, 2011 sorry but to quote a good friend of mine " are you mental ?" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Burpster Posted February 19, 2011 Report Share Posted February 19, 2011 I'm struggling with the concept of your post, but in my experience having owned far too many guns I'll state the following. 'you get what you pay for' If you buy a ten bob gun from any maker from any country it will probably function, just. Spend a lot of money and you get good sound engineering (QC improves with the amount you spend) and start to get better fuction irrespective of the country of origin. Yes Italian Semis are worth the money, there is a reason they are market leaders. Indeed if your post was anywhere near serious, I would counter argue that most American guns feel like Field artillery compared to Italian guns, which are lithe, well designed, well executed and a joy to own and use. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mfletch Posted February 19, 2011 Report Share Posted February 19, 2011 Any country can build a gun that weighs 26lb and has a quarter inch thick barrel but it takes good engineering and skill to build a gun that is light as well as strong. Just because something is light does not mean it rubbish it means its well designed and engineered Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PigeonEater Posted February 19, 2011 Report Share Posted February 19, 2011 A recently had a day with Explor A400 and i have to say it was fantastic. Handled beautifuly an i shot really well with it. If i could afford it i would trade my SX3 in anyday. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RAMMER BURT Posted February 19, 2011 Report Share Posted February 19, 2011 i have got an A400 and its the best beretta auto i have owned well made and cycled 28g carts straight out of the box with no problem what so ever,i also own a SV10 with quick release stock on inspection of the workings its a thing of beauty every part inside the gun is polished to a mirror finish ok it cost £2300 when i got it new but in no way is it italian built ****,just ask barry simpson what beretta's are built like he will tell you as good as any other gun Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nimms Posted February 19, 2011 Report Share Posted February 19, 2011 I recently borrowed a Berette 686 at a clay ground that they claimed had had 1 million carts through it. Dont think much to their engineering as it has needed servicing twice AND replacement hinge pins. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon R Posted February 19, 2011 Report Share Posted February 19, 2011 Any chance of a reasoned answer Mr Oops Missed Again? We are agog waiting for the benefit of your vast experience. :lol: :rolleyes: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RC45 Posted February 19, 2011 Report Share Posted February 19, 2011 I recently borrowed a Berette 686 at a clay ground that they claimed had had 1 million carts through it. Dont think much to their engineering as it has needed servicing twice AND replacement hinge pins. Only ONE million carts.... They must improve their designs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDAV Posted February 19, 2011 Report Share Posted February 19, 2011 I feel I must buy an Italian gun to see if my views about there engineering skills can be changed. Most of there guns feel very flimsy. Pick up a silver pigeon then a 525, 1100 and 301. Oddly i thought he was nuts too until today i did pick up a 686,525,MK38 all within 5 minutes the MK38 was the oldest most used and nicest, the 525 is my gun the 686 did feel less in my hands, not saying it is less but didnt have the feel of the MK38/525. May just be i am used to the browning/miroku way! but they did feel different and the 686 did not feel better and looked less elegant with the action broken (just seemed a bit fussy in comparison) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oops Missed Again Posted February 19, 2011 Author Report Share Posted February 19, 2011 Any chance of a reasoned answer Mr Oops Missed Again? We are agog waiting for the benefit of your vast experience. :lol: :rolleyes: Hi Chaps, Sorry for the delay but have been in London all day. Anyway sorry to upset all you lovers of Italian engineering but I honestly think only one person read the content and that was HDAV. I have only got 40 years of engineering knowledge so yes I don't know much compared with some of the old skilled men I have worked with. I don't know if you are an engineer but a nut and bolt is a nut and bolt but a 0BA is smaller than a 4"AF. I still stand by my "feel flimsy" and I have worked on Italian aircraft, well unless you've been there it's difficult to explain. Gorden R R u an engineer? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon R Posted February 19, 2011 Report Share Posted February 19, 2011 I am not an engineer. That said, I have been involved in all things mechanical for over 50 years. I have built more motorcycles, cars, car engines than you can point a stick at. I probably have more mechanical tools than anyone on this forum. If someone has more, then they are as sad as me. I know one end of a spanner from the other. If you have the mechanical expertise you will appreciate the locking systems utilised on many quality Italian guns. As someone has pointed out, they are built to last. They are immensely strong - I defy anyone to call Perazzi flimsy. Browning / Miroku build fine guns, but no better. Perhaps you can explain what is wrong with Italian engineering. Now if you had said all guns were flimsy compared to Vostok, you might have had half a point. I am also aware that OBA is smaller than 4" AF. I think you missed the decimal point:- OBA = 0.413". I would be interested in your view on Britool tools. Old timers keep telling me that they are excellent, but any engineer will know a whole lot better. Now they are flimsy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Burpster Posted February 20, 2011 Report Share Posted February 20, 2011 Interesting analogies above..... Italian aircraft are not Italian guns ! Italian aircraft and cars are built to look good and if they actually work as well then ...."ay bellisimo!".... OMA - I share your appreciation of engineering, yes indeed I own American tools, an American 4x4, a German bike etc, but I also own Berettas and a Benelli. In the same way FACOM tools are quality kit but most everything else French is suspect, without actually owning an Italian gun I feel you are speaking out of turn about the quality. As I alluded to above, Italian guns support the main Italian past time which of course is eating, it is very important to Italians that their lunch/dinner is successfully prepared and therefore their guns are made to be able to hit to their targets. Cars, bikes and planes do not reflect anywhere near such importance to the Italian psyche. I also agree that Browning, Miroku and Winchester of older versions were very (but over engineered) good quality. The modern stuff is not as good and IMO not in the same league as the better Italian gun makers (we're talking shotguns here not rifles, in rifle-land they are both cack and only Northern European rifles have that quality). The modern Winchester and Browning semis (whilst they have a very devoted following) are very pale imitations of the Berettas and Benellis on who's shirt tails they rightly hang. To qualify my statements, whilst I don't share your engineering qualifications I am responsible for bringing to justice those whose use of machines puts the public at risk so I know shonky engineering when I see it..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon R Posted February 20, 2011 Report Share Posted February 20, 2011 The Burpster - I wholeheartedly agree. I have owned more Winchesters, Brownings and Mirokus, than Italian - only Beretta, Franchi and Guerini. The lock up and finish inside the action is certainly as good on the Italians. I have owned a couple of older Brownings which did seem to be better than the newer ones. On the tool front - I own about 45 different makes of American tools. I have Snap On, KD, SK, Mac, Blackhawk, Proto, Apex, Bonney, Armstrong, Husky, Plomb, Durachrome, Channellock, Bondhus, Par-X, Allen, Lisle, Vise Grip, plus a whole lot more, but in my book Facom make the best ratchets. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oops Missed Again Posted February 20, 2011 Author Report Share Posted February 20, 2011 Hi, Just got in again. I've got a few old Britool tools left over from my apprenticeship days, they did the job then and if I got them out from the attic I'm sure they would do the job now. But the "feel" of them compared to my snap on tools well, the "feel" is what I meant about Italian guns. If I can put it this way Fiat, Lancia (buy one get one free yes they did that) say no more. No seriously, I am starting to think the Beratta's etc are better guns than Browning/Miroku. Got a HOLLAND & HOLLAND ROYAL DE LUXE 2OGA Self Opener in for service and the feel of that, well that is something else. But honestly I think my next gun will have to be a Beretta. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oops Missed Again Posted February 20, 2011 Author Report Share Posted February 20, 2011 (edited) I recently borrowed a Berette 686 at a clay ground that they claimed had had 1 million carts through it. Dont think much to their engineering as it has needed servicing twice AND replacement hinge pins. I've heard it all before!! we all know someone that's got a bigger one, longer one and fired 10 million rounds. I know someone who buys a new Beretta every year because he wears it out.(so he says) I can see why people like them because they are pretty things but my question was are they worth the money, and that's 14 of my Escort's or 12 of my 1100's and the answer is of course not. Edited February 20, 2011 by Oops Missed Again Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon R Posted February 20, 2011 Report Share Posted February 20, 2011 Oops Missed Again - truce called. I don't accept the flimsy accusation, but can we agree to differ? The old Britool spanners were okay, but the modern ones seem to be made from chocolate. Any pressure on an open ended spanner and it splays. Their ratchets are clunky and prone to very early failure. That said, I don't rate Snap On ratchets. Best ratchet I possess - I think I have around forty - is an old Blackhawk. It has to be 50-60 years old, but still superb. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oops Missed Again Posted February 20, 2011 Author Report Share Posted February 20, 2011 Oops Missed Again - truce called. I don't accept the flimsy accusation, but can we agree to differ? The old Britool spanners were okay, but the modern ones seem to be made from chocolate. Any pressure on an open ended spanner and it splays. Their ratchets are clunky and prone to very early failure. That said, I don't rate Snap On ratchets. Best ratchet I possess - I think I have around forty - is an old Blackhawk. It has to be 50-60 years old, but still superb. I think I'd better stop before I go the same way as Mussolini!!! Of course we can agree to differ, it was a bit tongue in cheek to start off with, but good grief, people love their guns with great passion. All items we purchase are normally compared with each other and although I don't fire many guns the reason I keep on about "the feel" is because I touch, feel and bring to the shoulder one or two a day!! One last thing, I wish I was superb at 50-60 not mental Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mfletch Posted February 20, 2011 Report Share Posted February 20, 2011 I think what we all are talking about is modern technology; in other words mass production The old guns had the feel of the personal touch but new guns have the mechanical feel if you get what I mean. Britool the chrome was rubbish, As time passes better steel's are developed and and composite materials For one Aluminum alloy used in Benelli's you wont find any of that in a old Browning but it doesn't mean its not the future for guns to come Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDAV Posted February 20, 2011 Report Share Posted February 20, 2011 I have to say something "feeling Flimsey" is not the same as something being "flimsey" it is more how the person responds to the touch, a bit like VW's have a reputation for being "solid" I personally dont like the way golfs drive but love the way Alfa's do the alfa feels better but anyone who says alfa's are better built is a nutcase. With feel it is very variable and personal based on experience I know many who prefer steel to lightweight composite because of the "feel". I dont own any semi's and have only ever used a couple. HOwever it does seem that BEnelli are the leaders and now they are owned by Beretta the benelli designs are used in a lot of semi's If i was buying a semi a benelli would be top of list as would a Franchi Fast Pro. Both italian, If i was buying an O/U Miroku and Browning would be top..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spara Dritto Posted February 22, 2011 Report Share Posted February 22, 2011 All guns feel different e.g. - Beretta Feel different in your hands to a Browning, the Browning is generally "chunkyer" and Beretta is generally Slimmer, this has nothing to do with strength or robustness! (The guns are also of very simular weight) When I was feeling the 2 in the gun shop, the owner said "you will love one and hate the other" I think he means one will feel "right" in your hands, depending if you like the slim or larger feel guns. Beretta was for me personally as i didnt like the Chunkyness! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon R Posted February 22, 2011 Report Share Posted February 22, 2011 I have both makes of gun and both feel "chunky", as they are trap models. It depends which model you chose. Both have slim guns, both make meatier. To say one is chunkier - do me a favour. :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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