Magtech 12g Brass Hulls

[Cake444]

I have 25 Magtech brass 12g hulls and as i know they take a large pistol primer which in the UK requires an FAC to purchase. Based on this they are useless to me so my dreams of reloading brass hulls were shattered.

 

Strangely though I phoned Peter Lawman yesterday evening to place an order for some Vectan A1 powder and CX2000 Primers and I mentioned the brass hull situation with him.

 

He keeps in stock Magtech brass hulls that take a slightly smaller Shotgun Primer and are usable with smokeless powders. They cost £10 for 25 hulls which seems very good compared to what I paid!

 

I can’t find any loading data for them specifically but I did find some brief info on a forum a chap who uses them and sticks to the guidelines below. I tried to look for the thread again this morning but for the life of me I can’t find it!!!

 

Magtech 12g Brass Hull

Primer is specific to the hull - he didn’t go into detail to be honest he just called it 'Shotgun Primer'

Between 21.0 - 25.0 grains, Smokeless

3mm powder card, 20mm Fibre and 3mm Overshot

32g shot

Sealed with some silicone glue

 

I appreciate that reloading brass isn’t every body’s cup of tea, but for me is something I’m very keen on trying due to the lack of reloading equipment required and elegance of the hull.

 

If anybody out there can give some advice with regards to reloading Brass hulls then I would very much appreciate it. I will be reloading some next week in preparation for the weekend were I will test a few out.

 

Thansk again guys

Edited March 25, 2011 by Cake444

[Guest cookoff013]

21-25 grains of smokeless? that is quite a statement.

 

could i use 25grains of lowsonic with that? (i guess not)

21 grains of tecna? the wad wouldnt even leave tha barrel.

 

 

however, they are good for black powder.

[Cake444]

21-25 grains of smokeless? that is quite a statement.

 

could i use 25grains of lowsonic with that? (i guess not)

21 grains of tecna? the wad wouldnt even leave tha barrel.

 

 

however, they are good for black powder.

 

 

Forgive my ignorance as I don’t have the same level of experience. Are you saying that with 21 grains of A1 the pressure would be incredibly low?

[sitsinhedges]

Forgive my ignorance as I don’t have the same level of experience. Are you saying that with 21 grains of A1 the pressure would be incredibly low?

 

He's saying that isn't a recipe it's a random jumble of possibilities, and christ only knows how using mastic to seal a cartridge is elegant or consistent

 

I've tried to help you but cant be bothered anymore, you've ignored good advice and gone off on some brass case wild goose chase and we all suffer the consequences of idiots doing something stupid.

If you haven't got verified data for specifically what you are loading you stand a good chance of hurting yourself, esp if you are a relatively clueless newbie. Is that clear enough.

[Cake444]

He's saying that isn't a recipe it's a random jumble of possibilities, and christ only knows how using mastic to seal a cartridge is elegant or consistent

 

I've tried to help you but cant be bothered anymore, you've ignored good advice and gone off on some brass case wild goose chase and we all suffer the consequences of idiots doing something stupid.

If you haven't got verified data for specifically what you are loading you stand a good chance of hurting yourself, esp if you are a relatively clueless newbie. Is that clear enough.

 

A newbie to reloading I am, but I’m not clueless. We all have knowledge in certain areas and there is nothing wrong with seeking advice from people. My job is to give advice every day and I certainly wouldn’t react like you just did, it’s quite a poor representation of yourself.

 

This was more of a thread to see if could find anybody who has experience with what I’m looking to do.

Edited March 25, 2011 by Cake444

[Guest cookoff013]

as a new reloader, i think it wisest not to go off the beaten track just yet.

 

just reload some standard cartidges, for a while. it will be great experience and a good foundation for you to build on.

maybe you could teach others if you have more experience. experience being, doing something right over a period of time.

 

i have little knowlege of brass hulls, even less loading them.

i know what you are trying to do, produce a nice classic load.

 

stick to the cheddite hulls, they are free, primers are easy, and you dont have to pritt stick the overshot cards in.

[phaedra1106]

Forgive my ignorance as I don’t have the same level of experience. Are you saying that with 21 grains of A1 the pressure would be incredibly low?

 

What (I think) he's saying is that 21 to 25 grains is quite a wide variation, couple that with an unspecified "smokeless powder" and you have a recipe for a potentially leathal load.

 

There are simply far too many smokeless powders with such widely different characteristics to make a simple load range like that safe, if it was for a named powder type it would make sense.

 

For example, if I loaded my .44mag rounds using from 21 to 24 grains of Hogdon H110 this gives lower recoil target rounds at one end and full magnum loads at the other, if I then simply changed to a different powder like Hogdon Titegroup without changing the powder weight it would produce 2.4 x the maximum recommended load for that powder and produce enough pressure to possibly blow the gun apart when fired.

[Cake444]

What (I think) he's saying is that 21 to 25 grains is quite a wide variation, couple that with an unspecified "smokeless powder" and you have a recipe for a potentially leathal load.

 

There are simply far too many smokeless powders with such widely different characteristics to make a simple load range like that safe, if it was for a named powder type it would make sense.

 

For example, if I loaded my .44mag rounds using from 21 to 24 grains of Hogdon H110 this gives lower recoil target rounds at one end and full magnum loads at the other, if I then simply changed to a different powder like Hogdon Titegroup without changing the powder weight it would produce 2.4 x the maximum recommended load for that powder and produce enough pressure to possibly blow the gun apart when fired.

 

Right i can completely see were your coming from! Clearly what I’ve posted can hardly be followed or called load data as its just garbage!

 

sitsinhedges gave me the load data below for 70mm pt cases so I’m ok on that font and will stick with this recipe until I’m more experienced. I’ve got lots of Hull 70mm cases left over from rabbit shooting so I should be able to make use of these.

 

• 
   
  
• 70mm PT case
  
• CX2000 primer
  
• 24.0 grains /1.55 grams Vectan A1
  
• 3mm card+17mm Fibre+5mm cork
  
• 32g shot
  
• 1074fps/327mps at 20metres
  
• 6pt crimp
  
• 494.00 bar
  

 

Not sure if I could apply this same load data listed above and apply it for brass (going to get shot down for that).

[phaedra1106]

Short answer is that I don't know, never reloaded for shotgun.

 

In theory the case type should be irrelevant as both the plastic and brass cases are designed to handle the pressures used in shotgun loads safely. However, the one problem I can think of is with the sealing of the cartridge, there will be a difference between a crimped plastic hull which requires a certain amount of pressure to open and an unknown amount of sealant which may have a stronger or weaker bond depending on what brand or type is used, it's an unknown variable and that's the one thing you don't want in any reloaded cartridge.

 

Given that it should only be sealing around the edge of a paper card to the inside of the brass hull and that nothing else is obstructing the shot exit path other than the card I would assume it shouldn't be a problem, maybe a PM to sitsinhedges would give you more information.

Edited March 25, 2011 by phaedra1106

[Guest cookoff013]

Short answer is that I don't know, never reloaded for shotgun.

 

In theory the case type should be irrelevant as both the plastic and brass cases are designed to handle the pressures used in shotgun loads safely. However, the one problem I can think of is with the sealing of the cartridge, there will be a big difference between a crimped hull which requires little pressure to open and an unknown amount of sealant which in turn will have a stronger or weaker bond depending on what brand or type is used so again it's an unknown variable and that's the one thing you don't want in any reloaded cartridge.

 

the chamber holds the pressure not the case / hull. after the brass has been fired it will have opened alittle, you`ll have to resize if you want to use them in another firearm.

the case type is relavent as the case volume can and will cause problems.

 

so resizing the brass hulls is an issue, re-priming the hulls are an issue, and sealing the hulls is an issue. (whole lotta issues.)

[Cake444]

the chamber holds the pressure not the case / hull. after the brass has been fired it will have opened alittle, you`ll have to resize if you want to use them in another firearm.

the case type is relavent as the case volume can and will cause problems.

 

so resizing the brass hulls is an issue, re-priming the hulls are an issue, and sealing the hulls is an issue. (whole lotta issues.)

 

 

I feel like some pro brass sales man, I really don’t mean to be!

 

The hulls will open up very slightly after use, but from what I’ve read from users of these things, they cool then shrink just a little as well. Apparently you can reuse them over a lifetime if you look after them. That was one of the attractive features.

 

Re-priming will indeed be harder than re-priming a normal PT case. I would have thought that sealing them would be easier than crimping but perhaps not.

 

Here is a video I found from a chap in the UK although he is using the large pistol primer type with Black Powder.

 

 

I’m probably driving you all mad with my obsessive quest to sue brass hulls so please don’t feel like you have to reply, it’s just nice to share these things with people with lots of experience as its pointed me in a clearer direction

Edited March 25, 2011 by Cake444

[Jaguar Warrior]

Cake,

Don't be put off by the occasional unfavourable post. It's hard for any reader to read your mind and no-one wants to see someone hurt. Like yourself, I don't like giving up easily on a problem so i can see where you are coming from.

 

These brass cases taking shotgun primers My interest is piqued...

However I still have some issues.....

 

That sharp edge you are left with - would that cause loading problems in a mossberg pump?

As Cookoff says - you have very little resistance from the seal at the top, so you would tend to get a weak load.

Maybe the best use is to make dummy rounds to practice loading at night, as they look and feel different.

You could roll the top over so they feed easily and as it is a one off, shouldn't damage them.

 

Ping! :blink: I've just had an epiphany! :look: You could leave them unprimed, and use them as a fibre wad cutting guide. Prod out the wad through the primer hole.

Not as tight as a plastic case, they won't grip the wad. They could be ground down so you can cut a perfectly flat, 19 mm wad, 17mm, 15mm, 14 mm etc, none of which you can buy.

 

Thats what i would do if I'd bought these and wanted to get some use for my otherwise wasted money.

 

Metal things often look everlasting, but I suspect they will go out-of-round if you drop them, and squash if you stand on them in the field. Or worse never find them again in the dark in the wind and the rain.

 

JW

Edited March 25, 2011 by Jaguar Warrior

[Cake444]

Cake,

Don't be put off by the occasional unfavourable post. It's hard for any reader to read your mind and no-one wants to see someone hurt. Like yourself, I don't like giving up easily on a problem so i can see where you are coming from.

 

These brass cases taking shotgun primers My interest is piqued...

However I still have some issues.....

 

That sharp edge you are left with - would that cause loading problems in a mossberg pump?

As Cookoff says - you have very little resistance from the seal at the top, so you would tend to get a weak load.

Maybe the best use is to make dummy rounds to practice loading at night, as they look and feel different.

You could roll the top over so they feed easily and as it is a one off, shouldn't damage them.

 

Ping! :blink: I've just had an epiphany! :look: You could leave them unprimed, and use them as a fibre wad cutting guide. Prod out the wad through the primer hole.

Not as tight as a plastic case, they won't grip the wad. They could be ground down so you can cut a perfectly flat, 19 mm wad, 17mm, 15mm, 14 mm etc, none of which you can buy.

 

Thats what i would do if I'd bought these and wanted to get some use for my otherwise wasted money.

 

Metal things often look everlasting, but I suspect they will go out-of-round if you drop them, and squash if you stand on them in the field. Or worse never find them again in the dark in the wind and the rain.

 

JW

 

 

I appreciate all the advice, it’s helped a lot! I can understand it must frustrate people when somebody like me knows so little and wants to do something without any supporting data.

 

They are Magtech cases, but according to Peter Lawman they take Shotgun Primers, not the 209 Primers, there slightly smaller but purchasable under an SGC. I can’t find too much detail at all on them but he sold me 25 brass hulls for £10 and 1000 of these small shotgun primers for £20. I will post a few photos when i get them on Tuesday.

 

The hulls are more suited for sxs or o&u guns as appose to semi/pump. On a US forum they were rounding them off to remove the sharp edges so they can be used in semi/pump's.

You need 11g wadding as the internal diameter of the hull is slightly larger than a PT hull. This may pose an issue but I emailed a cowboy action shooter regarding these hulls and he advised that a sealed over shot wad would produce less pressure than a crimped PT as it puts up less resistance. That was his experience anyway. He only sues black powder.

 

Using a case as a wad cutter may be a good idea, i may look in to getting hold of some 11g wadding first though. The hulls are pretty tough but they would clearly bend as the open end if stepped on or miss treated. If all was successful you could hang onto a load of these and reuse them using very little equipment.

[Andy H]

You can buy your over size wads and cards from here.

 

http://www.wadsincorporated.com/home/

 

Did peter say what primers they were Eley surefire for example.

Edited March 27, 2011 by Andy H

[Cake444]

You can buy your over size wads and cards from here.

 

http://www.wadsincorporated.com/home/

 

Did peter say what primers they were Eley surefire for example.

 

 

The hulls arrived today along with the primers. There Magtech 12g brass hulls but there a bit thicker in the base were the primer is compared to the ones that take large pistol primers.

 

The primers are CBC No56? There are other markings on the tin as well. They look like large rifle primers?

Edited March 29, 2011 by Cake444

[Andy H]

On the new cases does the primer pocket have two small holes in it instead of one as the only reference i can find 0n cbc/magtech no 56 say's the are berdan primers.

[Cake444]

On the new cases does the primer pocket have two small holes in it instead of one as the only reference i can find 0n cbc/magtech no 56 say's the are berdan primers.

 

 

Yeah that’s right; the base pocket has two small holes in it. I have pasted a link below to a primer image just so this may help. The primer in the image is the one on the far right with the yellow colour. They come in a tin as shown. £20 for 1000.

The primers are very easy to fit actually; they just push in most of the way but obviously require a bit of leverage from a device or flat surface to become flush. They can be removed quite easily with a sharp tool on a Leatherman, just push it in a pop it out and then a little clean with a wire brush to remove any scoring.

 

 

http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=http://img.photobucket.com/albums/1003/dutchmosin/Ammo/M5110787.jpg&imgrefurl=http://steyrmannlicher.yuku.com/topic/9767&usg=__Mb_UkJKJF45_wRdTwIDw_FMentc=&h=480&w=640&sz=67&hl=en&start=0&zoom=1&tbnid=epoVBy5dpNHkEM:&tbnh=131&tbnw=187&ei=WNeRTarSM4ea8QPsx-XpAw&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dcbc%2Bprimers%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26safe%3Doff%26biw%3D1438%26bih%3D567%26tbs%3Disch:1&um=1&itbs=1&iact=rc&dur=207&oei=WNeRTarSM4ea8QPsx-XpAw&page=1&ndsp=22&ved=1t:429,r:4,s:0&tx=149&ty=95

 

 

I’ve got some of the physical components needed now to put a cartridge together.

 

Magtech brass hulls

Vectan A1 Powder

cbc/magtech no 56 primers

10g 4mm nitro wads

10g 1/2inch fibre wads

11g 3mm over shot wads

Water Glass sealant

5kg of No6 shot

[welshboy]

Yeah that’s right; the base pocket has two small holes in it. I have pasted a link below to a primer image just so this may help. The primer in the image is the one on the far right with the yellow colour. They come in a tin as shown. £20 for 1000.

The primers are very easy to fit actually; they just push in most of the way but obviously require a bit of leverage from a device or flat surface to become flush. They can be removed quite easily with a sharp tool on a Leatherman, just push it in a pop it out and then a little clean with a wire brush to remove any scoring.

 

 

http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=http://img.photobucket.com/albums/1003/dutchmosin/Ammo/M5110787.jpg&imgrefurl=http://steyrmannlicher.yuku.com/topic/9767&usg=__Mb_UkJKJF45_wRdTwIDw_FMentc=&h=480&w=640&sz=67&hl=en&start=0&zoom=1&tbnid=epoVBy5dpNHkEM:&tbnh=131&tbnw=187&ei=WNeRTarSM4ea8QPsx-XpAw&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dcbc%2Bprimers%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26safe%3Doff%26biw%3D1438%26bih%3D567%26tbs%3Disch:1&um=1&itbs=1&iact=rc&dur=207&oei=WNeRTarSM4ea8QPsx-XpAw&page=1&ndsp=22&ved=1t:429,r:4,s:0&tx=149&ty=95

 

 

I’ve got some of the physical components needed now to put a cartridge together.

 

Magtech brass hulls

Vectan A1 Powder

cbc/magtech no 56 primers

10g 4mm nitro wads

10g 1/2inch fibre wads

11g 3mm over shot wads

Water Glass sealant

5kg of No6 shot

Hopefully you are still intact- how did your tests go ?

I tried a simple change of reducing the pellets in a 32g steel cartridge by 4g to a 28g and left the other components the same with the exception of trying some flour as a buffer to help tighten the pattern.

The crimp was not as good as the original and the test fire was disappointing - no change in the pattern efficiency and I suspect not quite the same velocity ( I expected more) from the impact on a sheet of tin.

Maybe the guys querying the sealing of the brass case are right.

[Cake444]

Hopefully you are still intact- how did your tests go ?

I tried a simple change of reducing the pellets in a 32g steel cartridge by 4g to a 28g and left the other components the same with the exception of trying some flour as a buffer to help tighten the pattern.

The crimp was not as good as the original and the test fire was disappointing - no change in the pattern efficiency and I suspect not quite the same velocity ( I expected more) from the impact on a sheet of tin.

Maybe the guys querying the sealing of the brass case are right.

 

Hi Welshboy,

 

I'm still intact fortunately, been using the brass hulls for quite a while now. Must of done over 450 i'm sure!

 

Managed to get a reliable recipe together, worked with it for a while and then altered it very slightly to get something a bit cheaper but still affective (converted all hulls to take 209's).

 

I was going to make a video, but the cartridges are not that exciting. You can load what you like in them if you work out the recipe, and the good thing is they last a long long time unless you tread on them!

 

I think the best i did with the brass was a few weeks back on the clay ground at barbury, 41 out of 50, best i've ever shot. Cant see it happening again too soon! lol.