Airgun law

[Rabbitsnightmare]

I have a field next to my main fields but there is a field between that is mine but has a public footpath running through. Is it legal to walk across the footpath with my airgun to get to my other field or does it have to be covered?

Cheers

[lewj]

i think so, but deffo unloaded

[Dekers]

I have a field next to my main fields but there is a field between that is mine but has a public footpath running through. Is it legal to walk across the footpath with my airgun to get to my other field or does it have to be covered?

Cheers

 

 

The Public Footpath is by definition a Public Place.

 

You have every reason and right to travel across it to access your other piece of land, but the gun should be unloaded and covered!

Edited September 2, 2011 by Dekers

[TaxiDriver]

It's no clear reading your post,

You own or have permission to shoot over 3 fields next to each other ? but the middle one has a public footpath running across/through it ?

 

I would think that if you're there legally either owning or with permission then the idea that you have to cover your gun to cross a footpath that is what 3ft wide ? seems ridiculous.

 

I have a permission where I have a 1/4 mile of footpath along the edge which is where the tractors run too, FEO told me I can shoot anywhere on the land but obviously have to be aware of any footpath users and/or possible users.

[Dekers]

It's no clear reading your post,

You own or have permission to shoot over 3 fields next to each other ? but the middle one has a public footpath running across/through it ?

 

I would think that if you're there legally either owning or with permission then the idea that you have to cover your gun to cross a footpath that is what 3ft wide ? seems ridiculous.

 

I have a permission where I have a 1/4 mile of footpath along the edge which is where the tractors run too, FEO told me I can shoot anywhere on the land but obviously have to be aware of any footpath users and/or possible users.

 

 

Perhaps it does, but its a public space and nothing else matters, you are not allowed your gun loaded/exposed in a Public area without just cause, and the likes of you and me will never find just cause!

 

At which point do you consider it becomes reasonable to unload and cover your rifle......, apparently not the width of a public footpath, how about a Bridleway , Railway crossing , Country Lane , Road , High street ,Motorway shopping centre ! See the problem!

[JustJon]

Surely if the OP has permission on the middle field he can follow the footpath - he would still be looking for quarry so as long as he remains aware then he is legal - he has good cause.

 

If no permission or ownership exists on the middle field then unloaded and sleeved is the answer, else you're likely o e hit with armed trespass case if caught?

 

Thats how I understand it anyway.

 

First paragraph - on second thoughts if you have permission in middle field best not to follow footpath, walk around it so that no one gets startled. Where did my common sense go now

 

I'm guessing from the post that permission doesn't exist in the middle field.

[Rabbitsnightmare]

Yes I own the fields including the field with a footpath running through and it probably 50 ft x 120 ft the other fields by the side of it are fenced off and are privite

Sorry if I was unclear

So can I still walk across it with my rifle uncovered or does it have to be covered

I'm confused

[pigeonstool]

If memory serves -

The persons "using" the footpath/bridal way/road MUST USE IT - i.e. keep moving --

on your part -- you MUST NOT imped their progress ... (precedent case law)

If you are "using" the footpath/bridal way/road then you have to follow the 'rules' ; covered/unloaded gun.(Firearms Acts etc.)

If you are "using the land", then use it wisely .... if you shoot across or walk across the 'rights of Way'

Edited September 2, 2011 by pigeonstool

[Dekers]

Yes I own the fields including the field with a footpath running through and it probably 50 ft x 120 ft the other fields by the side of it are fenced off and are privite

Sorry if I was unclear

So can I still walk across it with my rifle uncovered or does it have to be covered

I'm confused

 

 

Now I'm getting confused, just what was the question?!

 

You cannot LEGALLY walk across a Public Footpath with your gun exposed or loaded!

 

Was that the question?

 

[JustJon]

Now I'm getting confused, just what was the question?!

 

You cannot LEGALLY walk across a Public Footpath with your gun exposed or loaded!

 

Was that the question?

 

 

Yes you can? If you have sporting rights or ownership of the land you can sit on the footpath shooting quarry, if you have reasonable cause (which shooting is) to be carrying the weapon and you do not stop anyones progress - I.e. Get out the way when they're coming.

 

Making sure you're fully aware of who is approaching is then key.

 

http://www.basc.org.uk/download.cfm/docid/8201D2D3-E4B1-4333-B24BA94A9790765C

 

It may be public land, it is not a highway. Key difference.

[JustJon]

If memory serves -

The persons "using" the footpath/bridal way/road MUST USE IT - i.e. keep moving --

on your part -- you MUST NOT imped their progress ... (precedent case law)

If you are "using" the footpath/bridal way/road then you have to follow the 'rules' ; covered/unloaded gun.(Firearms Acts etc.)

If you are "using the land", then use it wisely .... if you shoot across or walk across the 'rights of Way'

 

This sums it up nicely, if you're walking and not looking for quarry then you have no good reason to have your gun out. If your looking for quarry and potential shots then you're using the land you have legal rights over, no problem.

 

I know how I would do it...

[Dekers]

Now I'm getting confused, just what was the question?!

 

You cannot LEGALLY walk across a Public Footpath with your gun exposed or loaded!

 

Was that the question?

 

 

 

Yes you can? If you have sporting rights or ownership of the land you can sit on the footpath shooting quarry, if you have reasonable cause (which shooting is) to be carrying the weapon and you do not stop anyones progress - I.e. Get out the way when they're coming.

 

Making sure you're fully aware of who is approaching is then key.

 

http://www.basc.org.uk/download.cfm/docid/8201D2D3-E4B1-4333-B24BA94A9790765C

 

It may be public land, it is not a highway. Key difference.

 

 

I can't make the link work, can you post up the section, cheers.

 

It may be public land, it is not a highway. Key difference. What is that all about, your local Tesco is NOT a Highway, what makes you think it is acceptable to carry an exposed loaded rifle in Tesco!

 

From the BASC Airguns Code of Practice

Where you can shoot

Where you intend to shoot, always ensure that you are authorised by the landowner or person with the sporting rights and that you know precisely where the boundaries are. Get permission in writing, if possible, to remove any doubt.

 

Whenever you are in a public place you should carry the rifle in a gun cover and always ensure that it is unloaded and not cocked.

 

A PUBLIC Footpath is just that, a Public Place.

 

What does this other link you have found say?

 

Cheers

Edited September 3, 2011 by Dekers

[Beretta28g]

I know pheasant drives where guns are stood on the footpath when they are on their pegs, they have never had any problems, so i would have thought it is legal.

[JustJon]

Hi Dekers,

 

I can't copy and paste on my ipad - it's a word document which may be why you cant open it. I'll put the laptop on later and post it up. It basically says that the footpath is shared, you can shoot on it and they can walk on it. Neither must impede the other (I.e. They must keep walking and you cant stop them walking by shooting when they're close)

 

The difference at tesco is you don't have the permission to shoot. And there are people around, if the footpath where as busy as tesco then potentially you would be impeding progress and would have to stop shooting?

 

The thin line comes when you are only walking - not looking for a shot. Then you'd have to sleeve and unload as there wouldn't be a reason for your gun to be out.

 

So - if you own the land or sporting rights for the land the footpath runs through then you also own the rights on the footpath - you don't get a 2 foot strip of land that can't be shot on.

 

At least thats the BASC view with some supporting case law.

 

Imagine if you couldn't shoot near a footpath and think of Scotland with a right to roam? That makes everywhere public and hence illegal to shoot anywhere? (I don't understand Scottish walking law so may misunderstand?)

 

Jon

[Dekers]

Hi Dekers,

 

I can't copy and paste on my ipad - it's a word document which may be why you cant open it. I'll put the laptop on later and post it up. It basically says that the footpath is shared, you can shoot on it and they can walk on it. Neither must impede the other (I.e. They must keep walking and you cant stop them walking by shooting when they're close)

 

The difference at tesco is you don't have the permission to shoot. And there are people around, if the footpath where as busy as tesco then potentially you would be impeding progress and would have to stop shooting?The thin line comes when you are only walking - not looking for a shot. Then you'd have to sleeve and unload as there wouldn't be a reason for your gun to be out.

 

So - if you own the land or sporting rights for the land the footpath runs through then you also own the rights on the footpath - you don't get a 2 foot strip of land that can't be shot on.

 

At least thats the BASC view with some supporting case law.

 

Imagine if you couldn't shoot near a footpath and think of Scotland with a right to roam? That makes everywhere public and hence illegal to shoot anywhere? (I don't understand Scottish walking law so may misunderstand?)

 

Jon

 

 

This is getting interesting.

 

So you're saying the only reason you cannot carry an exposed loaded rifle down the High St, through the Shopping Centre, etc., is because you don't have permission! So, if the Manager of Tesco told you it was fine to walk through his shop at midday on Saturday with an exposed loaded rifle that would be fine!

 

 

Scotland has different laws in many areas!

 

I will be very interested to read the link later.

 

Cheers

Edited September 3, 2011 by Dekers

[JustJon]

I'm not sure to be honest Dekers,

 

Common sense would stop us doing it, but what charge would we be arrested on? We normally see armed trespass (doesn't apply as we have permission), being too close to a highway (nope) or the shot going on someone elses land (civil case).

 

I suspect at tesco it would be breach of the peace or causing a public nuisance? Not sure what 'gun law' would prevent it?

 

As above, we can't impede progress, and potentially in tesco we would be doing? (I know I would stop and stare, or possibly just run away?)

 

I'm not an expert - I'm only saying what the BASC site says - as mentioned above pheasants are often shot from footpaths and this is fine?

 

Jon

[JustJon]

When the footpath runs across private land the ownership of the land and sporting

rights are unaltered. Therefore a person with the shooting/sporting rights may

shoot on or over footpaths on their land equally to public having the right to walk

(to pass and re-pass) along it as a means of communication. So the public and the

shooters have a concurrent right to the footpath and it is up to both parties to not

obstruct the other.

 

That's the quote I'm going by - Covered in an article called "Rights of Way"

 

They also put this - hence why we don't shoot when people are near us (I refer to the "I was attacked by 2 dogs" post)

 

BASC advises that discretion be used where shooting needs to take place and

where a public right of way exists. All persons participating in any shooting activity

must recognise that users of public rights of way have the right to pass and repass.

One should refrain from shooting when a right of way is being used as this

could be construed as a common law nuisance, wilful obstruction or a breach of

Health and Safety at Work etc Act 1974.

 

And the final relevant (They talk about the 50 feet rule and "best practice" on pheasent shoots as well as how to stop antis tresspassing and what laws they may break) section is this:

 

Carrying Firearms in public places - Section 19 of the Firearms Act 1968

makes it an offence for someone to have with them a loaded shotgun, a

loaded air weapon, or any other firearm (whether loaded or not) together

with ammunition suitable for use in that firearm in a public place without

lawful authority or reasonable excuse (the proof whereof lies on the person).

The Anti-social Behaviour Act 2003 also extends the Firearms Act to include

unloaded air weapons and imitation firearms.

 

The British Association for Shooting and Conservation has raised concerns with

DEFRA, on behalf of its members, that allowing sections 19 and 47 of the Firearms

Act to apply to all land mapped as ‘open access land’ might lead members of the

public to misunderstand the scope of the provisions and contact the police. A

possibility also exists that some members of the public opposed

 

The point here is reasonable excuse and if the OP is looking for quarry then he has reasonable excuse to be carrying a loaded weapon?

 

The following is from earlier, where the 50 feet rule is discussed but also applied to the above quote, as it mentions:

 

Whilst the Firearms Act does not provide a statutory definition of what is meant by

“lawful authority” or “reasonable excuse”. We believe that “lawful authority” would

not necessarily apply to sportsmen as this seems to relate to those issued with

firearms in connection with official duties such as police or military personnel.

“Reasonable excuse” would apply to sportsmen shooting over land with permission.

Section 19 of the Firearms Act with regard to having a ‘firearm in a public place’

also applies and is described on page 4. This legislation applies to all public places

and not just open access land.

 

In Tesco I guess the carrier of the gun would have neither "lawful authority" or "reasonable excuse"

 

That's probably not the easiest to read, apologies.

 

Jon

[peek-at]

Its pretty simple really......assuming you arent under 18.(when there are extra rules)

 

You can not have an air weapon in a public place without lawful authority or reasonable excuse............which you do.

 

The only other thing to worry about is that you do not injure, interrupt or endanger anyone using the path........which im sure you dont.

 

Forget whether its covered or not as that doesnt apply in current legislation.

 

Happy shooting!

[Dekers]

That's the quote I'm going by - Covered in an article called "Rights of Way"

 

They also put this - hence why we don't shoot when people are near us (I refer to the "I was attacked by 2 dogs" post)

 

 

 

And the final relevant (They talk about the 50 feet rule and "best practice" on pheasent shoots as well as how to stop antis tresspassing and what laws they may break) section is this:

 

 

 

The point here is reasonable excuse and if the OP is looking for quarry then he has reasonable excuse to be carrying a loaded weapon?

 

The following is from earlier, where the 50 feet rule is discussed but also applied to the above quote, as it mentions:

 

 

 

In Tesco I guess the carrier of the gun would have neither "lawful authority" or "reasonable excuse"

 

That's probably not the easiest to read, apologies.

 

Jon

 

 

Thanks for sticking that all up, appreciated but there seems a conflict here, the Public Footpath is a Public place whether owned or not or you have shooting rights on the land all round it or not, so how does that equate to the Firearms Act.....as you quote...

 

Carrying Firearms in public places - Section 19 of the Firearms Act 1968

makes it an offense for someone to have with them a loaded shotgun, a

loaded air weapon, or any other firearm (whether loaded or not) together

with ammunition suitable for use in that firearm in a public place without

lawful authority or reasonable excuse (the proof whereof lies on the person).

The Anti-social Behaviour Act 2003 also extends the Firearms Act to include

unloaded air weapons and imitation firearms.

 

Lawful excuse needs to be justified, I'm not at all sure a lawful excuse ...I want to shoot on a public footpath would work.

 

I have to admit I was not aware of that other malarkey about Footpaths, I was very much under the impression it was a no no.

 

Frankly, nothing here still says it is clearcut!

 

Perhaps the OP needs to ask the DIRECT question to the BASC, I would like to see their answer.

 

Cheers!

[Kes]

Hi all, my twopenn'orth.

A footpath is a highway, a bridleway is a highway, a 'road used as a public path' is a highway. Deckers is correct - the strict letter of the law is that you must not have a loaded gun in a public place. Every bit of advice says you should also have it sleeved in such places 'so that it cannot be fired'.

 

However, 40 years ago I used to shoot on an airfield which was cut in half by an 'a' road. One day I was pulled by a policeman and he asked me "what the hell do you think youre doing !!!!" in a very aggressive manner. I said - I unloaded my gun 50' from the highway and reloaded 50' on the other side. The gun was 'exposed' (not sleeved) but open whilst I talked to him and all he said was "ok you know what you are doing - do you have permission (which I did ) so off he went.

 

I am therefore not as absolutely clear about whether a gun has to be sleeved in such circumstances but I could well have missed that provision.

 

I KNOW that shooting from a footpath would be deemed illegal by anyone, custom and practice would be no defence against a keen copper.

I do not KNOW whether any actual offence is committed by having an unloaded gun unsleeved on a footpath, especially if one is crossing from one side to the other across the width but the provisions about (within 50' of the centre) still apply. As its a highway, you mat NOT have a loaded gun in a public place.

Very many shooters on here (me included), cross roads at night whilst foxing and just drop the mag, clear the chamber, remove or release the bolt and wander along happily.

I am almost sure you commit an offence if you have in your posession a firearm capable of being fired, in a public place even if its unloaded. Hence the 'slip -it' law/advice. I am not so sure you commit an offence if you remove and pocket the bolt froma rifle but I dont see how you could disable a shotgun.

I would really appreciate a definitive statement about this - not, as we have all done, pass on our view. However, re highways - I used to be responsible for those so you can take that as read.

Regards all,

Kes

[tosspot]

Unless this is out of date, lifted from the BASC

 

For the purposes of Section 161 (2) of the Highways Act 1980 (as amended), a

‘highway’ is restricted to a public right of way for the passage of vehicles and does

not include footpaths, cycle tracks or bridleways. Therefore the fifty feet rule

described above does not apply to rights of ways that cross private lands e.g.

footpaths.

Whilst the Firearms Act does not provide a statutory definition of what is meant by

“lawful authority” or “reasonable excuse”. We believe that “lawful authority” would

not necessarily apply to sportsmen as this seems to relate to those issued with

firearms in connection with official duties such as police or military personnel.

“Reasonable excuse” would apply to sportsmen shooting over land with permission.

Section 19 of the Firearms Act with regard to having a ‘firearm in a public place’

also applies and is described on page 4. This legislation applies to all public places

and not just open access land.

 

SHOOTING NEAR RIGHTS OF WAY (E.G. FOOTPATHS & BRIDLEWAYS)

When the footpath runs across private land the ownership of the land and sporting

rights are unaltered. Therefore a person with the shooting/sporting rights may

shoot on or over footpaths on their land equally to public having the right to walk

(to pass and re-pass) along it as a means of communication. So the public and the

shooters have a concurrent right to the footpath and it is up to both parties to not

obstruct the other.

However if you shoot over footpaths, only do so if you have permission to drop shot

over the land on the other side. To fire a bullet or shot onto land that you have no

right to shoot into or over is ‘constructive trespass’. Whilst this is a civil matter

BASC strongly advises not to do this. It is also a basic safety precaution not to

shoot into cover where you cannot be sure what your projectile(s) will hit. It is

especially important to apply this when shooting near footpaths obscured by hedges

or foliage. It is good practice to only shoot across footpaths where you can see

approaching users from a long way off and be certain you will not cause danger or

alarm.

If you shoot from a path situated on somebody else’s land (regardless of who owns

the rights to shoot on the land you are shooting into) it is taken to be armed

trespass which is a criminal offence.

[tosspot]

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/archive/index.php/t-411953.html

 

interesting reading

[larson]

i thought if the pennine way (for example) was running through a field you have permision on you could use your air rifle while stood on this path as long as you have permision both sides of the path. obviously they would be nobody to alarm walking down there or no shot would be taken

[JustJon]

Unless this is out of date, lifted from the BASC

 

For the purposes of Section 161 (2) of the Highways Act 1980 (as amended), a

‘highway’ is restricted to a public right of way for the passage of vehicles and does

not include footpaths, cycle tracks or bridleways. Therefore the fifty feet rule

described above does not apply to rights of ways that cross private lands e.g.

footpaths.

 

A highway, under the highways act, therefore is not a highway

[Kes]

This is a bit confusing - I dealt with highways (which included footpath and bridleways) which were all maintained by the local authority.

There was no distinction made bewteen those over private land and those in LA ownership. As said in the post above, all were 'highways'. All the above advice (very interesting read) suggests that the owner of the land is the key, and, also, dont rely on an incisive interpretation by the police.

 

I will research this and see what I can come up with but so far, it seems a little 'woolly' but at least workable.

 

Knowing the type of footpath pressure groups we have, until I can confirm ownership of every footpath I shoot near, on, across, etc. and the law which relates, I'll unload and drop the bolt/break the shotgun at every crossing of a highway and, apparently, slip any gun on what looks like a highway for vehicles. The reason being that if a highway is LA owned, but not used for vehicles, the 'owner' could not have given permission and permission to shoot can not be assumed.

There are tracks in Wales which are roads used a public paths (RUPPS) and one must presumably 'take a view'.

Given the level of interpretation and uncertainty (ownership) a simple rule would help everyone.

 

I wonder if BASC has sent their interpretation (links above)to ACPO (Association of Chief Police Officers) for confirmation? If it had ,then their interpretation could be quoted to the police attending incidents and we would all be better off.