Trefil Hunter Posted October 22, 2011 Report Share Posted October 22, 2011 I am reloading for my 222 and have an accurate load but now just trying a different head to see what the differences are. While preparing the cases though i noticed that the neck wall thickness varied considerably. Some cases were half the thickness on one side compared to the other. Is it worth turning the necks or just discarding the cases? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ackley Posted October 22, 2011 Report Share Posted October 22, 2011 I am reloading for my 222 and have an accurate load but now just trying a different head to see what the differences are. While preparing the cases though i noticed that the neck wall thickness varied considerably. Some cases were half the thickness on one side compared to the other. Is it worth turning the necks or just discarding the cases? I bet your using cheap brass ?? but saying that even with Lapua and Norma you will get slight variations in wall thickness,not as much as your experiencing though yes I would neck turn if you have the gear or can get it done its makes a hugh difference and helps your SD and aslo consistant bullet realease,if you havnt got a tight necked chamber you will just need to lightly clean the brass with the cutter you will then see how far out some cases can be if your using the cheaper end brass by preping it correctly it will be fine and you will see results Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redgum Posted October 22, 2011 Report Share Posted October 22, 2011 Reloading can be as complex as you want it to be and as expensive, its a personal choice. If you have an accurate load shooting through an off the shelf hunting rifle then personally I wouldnt bother going to all the trouble for better accuracy ( which may not be guaranteed in a standard rifle ).That said its all good fun and you don't know unless you try, thats the beauty of reloading. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trefil Hunter Posted October 22, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 22, 2011 im using rem brass with 50gr v max in stey mannlicher pro hunter. how much would it cost for the equipment for neck turning? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ackley Posted October 22, 2011 Report Share Posted October 22, 2011 im using rem brass with 50gr v max in stey mannlicher pro hunter. how much would it cost for the equipment for neck turning? take a look on reloading solutions web site get the K & M stuff its cery good,you will need the cutter and expander plus both mandrels to suit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted October 22, 2011 Report Share Posted October 22, 2011 im using rem brass with 50gr v max in stey mannlicher pro hunter. how much would it cost for the equipment for neck turning? Dont bother, just buy some better brass. Neck turning gets its results when used in connection with a tight cut custom chamber. Theres nothing wrong with your manlicher mind - just wasn't built with neck turning the brass in mind. Its a bit of a b.ache turning necks anyway, once you have done 100 cooling the cutter etc you will wish you just got some decent brass ans chances are once you turn them down even the darn things will start spliting on you post firing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ackley Posted October 22, 2011 Report Share Posted October 22, 2011 yes bother,thats if you want the best from the rifle you are using all these little accuract tweeks add up to consistant shooting,take a read of this http://blog.sinclairintl.com/2009/02/19/outside-case-neck-turning-for-factory-rifles/ it may help you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davesw Posted October 23, 2011 Report Share Posted October 23, 2011 Unless your shooting f class or precision lrt shooting don't bother you need to be an exceptional shot to outshoot any rifle or factory ammo in the field and let's face it most shots taken are taken at 200 yards or less ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ackley Posted October 23, 2011 Report Share Posted October 23, 2011 Unless your shooting f class or precision lrt shooting don't bother you need to be an exceptional shot to outshoot any rifle or factory ammo in the field and let's face it most shots taken are taken at 200 yards or less ! theres nothing wrong with wanting to get the very best from what you are using,be it in the field or on the range Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redgum Posted October 23, 2011 Report Share Posted October 23, 2011 theres nothing wrong with wanting to get the very best from what you are using,be it in the field or on the range Nowt wrong with being realistic either.There is to much emphesis on little tiny groups from a hunting rifle when your shooting off sticks or leaning against a tree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ackley Posted October 24, 2011 Report Share Posted October 24, 2011 Nowt wrong with being realistic either.There is to much emphesis on little tiny groups from a hunting rifle when your shooting off sticks or leaning against a tree. no disrespect intended here mate BUT havnt you "JUST" started reloading I dont think your qualified to comment just yet on whats needed or what can be done to achieve accuracy,at the end of the day accuracy kills the emphesis is "consistancy" which all these little tweeks add up to not necesseraly litle tiny groups Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted October 24, 2011 Report Share Posted October 24, 2011 Here is the difference i made turning the necks into an even thickness on my competition gun with a std cut chamber over and above unturned necks with the same brass (lapua) .0000000" (thats nothing to the less tecnically minded) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redgum Posted October 24, 2011 Report Share Posted October 24, 2011 no disrespect intended here mate BUT havnt you "JUST" started reloading I dont think your qualified to comment just yet on whats needed or what can be done to achieve accuracy,at the end of the day accuracy kills the emphesis is "consistancy" which all these little tweeks add up to not necesseraly litle tiny groups Yep, been reloading for just over a year and a half, loaded 700rnds so far if that makes me a novice I quess and would you believe it,using what you call rubbish, lee dies and a turret press. What I have learnt is that I can get nice little groups without going into mega technical ballistics and spending mega bucks. If I shot targets at long range then maybe I would go for neck turning, case weighin, bullet measuring etc etc, but I wouldnt be putting them through a stock hunting rifle. I use my 243 as a deer rifle and have no need to shoot past 250yds. I do chrono my loads to give me some idea of whats happening but mostly the proof is in the pudding.Theres quite a few on here that talk a good battle old mate, one thing I have learnt is consistency and uncomplicated reloading will give you very accurate ammo for less than buying it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ackley Posted October 25, 2011 Report Share Posted October 25, 2011 Yep, been reloading for just over a year and a half, loaded 700rnds so far if that makes me a novice I quess and would you believe it,using what you call rubbish, lee dies and a turret press. What I have learnt is that I can get nice little groups without going into mega technical ballistics and spending mega bucks. If I shot targets at long range then maybe I would go for neck turning, case weighin, bullet measuring etc etc, but I wouldnt be putting them through a stock hunting rifle. I use my 243 as a deer rifle and have no need to shoot past 250yds. I do chrono my loads to give me some idea of whats happening but mostly the proof is in the pudding.Theres quite a few on here that talk a good battle old mate, one thing I have learnt is consistency and uncomplicated reloading will give you very accurate ammo for less than buying it. thats fine BUT dont tell people neck turning "isnt worth it" when you have no idea yourself,if your happy with average un consistant groups thats great bbut others may want that bit more Here is the difference i made turning the necks into an even thickness on my competition gun with a std cut chamber over and above unturned necks with the same brass (lapua) .0000000" (thats nothing to the less tecnically minded) so your un turned brass had perfect thickness necks in a box of 100 thats truely remarkable Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul223 Posted October 25, 2011 Report Share Posted October 25, 2011 no i think what mr kent is saying pete is that after turning his cases he noticed no gain in accuracy from the fired round, and you know what that means now don't ya Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted October 25, 2011 Report Share Posted October 25, 2011 (edited) no i think what mr kent is saying pete is that after turning his cases he noticed no gain in accuracy from the fired round, and you know what that means now don't ya To clarify, though i wouln't have thought i needed to; Same lapua brass 50 unturned 50 turned (for even thickness all around - not diameter for a special tight cut chamber) gave no descernable increase in accuraccy when the two batches were compared. Now unlike some people i have actually lined up and competed on a regular basis and placed in the top slots The trick in improving anything is to make only one alteration at a time and measure its effect. No effect = not worth the time, adverce effect= dont do it again ever, improvement= if worthwhile to your purpose in hand adopt it. If i could actually see necks were of uneven thickness without measuring, i should scrap the brass- coz thats rubbish. If you get the highest quality brass and set up to neck turn a light cut for even thickness only ie. till the cut line is the complete circumference of the neck, then you will find out two things 1. nearly all the cases will be uneven to some degree 2. it makes no diference in 99% of factory cut chambers. The most important aspect of handloading for a factory rifle, once you take away charge,bullet,primer etc. is a good straight round (this assumes your gun has a chamber cut consentic to the bore as many don't ) little tweaks like turning the necks will only have a very slight effect in a very small persentage of factory guns. TIGHT CUT CUSTOM CHAMBERS ARE A VERY DIFFERENT THING Edited October 25, 2011 by kent Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ackley Posted October 25, 2011 Report Share Posted October 25, 2011 To clarify, though i wouln't have thought i needed to; Same lapua brass 50 unturned 50 turned (for even thickness all around - not diameter for a special tight cut chamber) gave no descernable increase in accuraccy when the two batches were compared. Now unlike some people i have actually lined up and competed on a regular basis and placed in the top slots The trick in improving anything is to make only one alteration at a time and measure its effect. No effect = not worth the time, adverce effect= dont do it again ever, improvement= if worthwhile to your purpose in hand adopt it. If i could actually see necks were of uneven thickness without measuring, i should scrap the brass- coz thats rubbish. If you get the highest quality brass and set up to neck turn a light cut for even thickness only ie. till the cut line is the complete circumference of the neck, then you will find out two things 1. nearly all the cases will be uneven to some degree 2. it makes no diference in 99% of factory cut chambers. The most important aspect of handloading for a factory rifle, once you take away charge,bullet,primer etc. is a good straight round (this assumes your gun has a chamber cut consentic to the bore as many don't ) little tweaks like turning the necks will only have a very slight effect in a very small persentage of factory guns. TIGHT CUT CUSTOM CHAMBERS ARE A VERY DIFFERENT THING thanks you for clarifying the matter BUT you have a match rifle and load with match dies and probably batch all your brass,which probably wont show any difference with turned or un turned brass now ALL the info on the net from "expert shooters" clearly show there is an advantage neck turning brass in a factory chamber,are these people lieing ?? or do you know better I on the other hand have persoanlly seen improovments by neck turning brass for a factory rifle,but what do I know I havnt "lined up and competed" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coyotemaster Posted October 25, 2011 Report Share Posted October 25, 2011 I have been loading rifle shells for over 40 years, so my journeymans card is in good stead before it's questioned. I know for sure what Ackley is talking about is true and most bench shooters do turn necks. They must feel it gives them an edge or they would not waste time on it. I have friends that turn necks on varmint rounds and they are good shooters and are concerned with utmost accuracy. BUT I shoot groups as small as they do without turning necks. I shoot only WW brass as I have found it consistent enough for my goals.Lapua is better but a lot higher priced. I think (opinion) that time is better spent in load development and range time. I do believe in beburring flash holes and necksizing, which I think contributes quite a bit to consistency. Brass quality as Kent noted is extremely important I won't mix headstamps and don't shoot anything but WW brass. One other thing I almost left out is annealing which I do about every 3 firings that keeps the neck tension consistent. ANNEAL THE NECK ONLY. Consistency yields accuracy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ackley Posted October 25, 2011 Report Share Posted October 25, 2011 I have been loading rifle shells for over 40 years, so my journeymans card is in good stead before it's questioned. I know for sure what Ackley is talking about is true and most bench shooters do turn necks. They must feel it gives them an edge or they would not waste time on it. I have friends that turn necks on varmint rounds and they are good shooters and are concerned with utmost accuracy. BUT I shoot groups as small as they do without turning necks. I shoot only WW brass as I have found it consistent enough for my goals.Lapua is better but a lot higher priced. I think (opinion) that time is better spent in load development and range time. I do believe in beburring flash holes and necksizing, which I think contributes quite a bit to consistency. Brass quality as Kent noted is extremely important I won't mix headstamps and don't shoot anything but WW brass. One other thing I almost left out is annealing which I do about every 3 firings that keeps the neck tension consistent. ANNEAL THE NECK ONLY. Consistency yields accuracy. you have the edge on me then mate I only have 15 years under my belt,you have said the magic word twice in your post "consistant" we all have shot an accurate group BUT the key is a consistant accurate group,I read it all the time on forums "my rifle shoots .5 all day long" of course it does just because they have put down a good group for once with there Tike T3 or what ever there using no matter how good you develop a load and no matter how long your spend shooting that load IF you aint got all the variables taken away form your favourite load there will be fliers hence do all you can to stop this,then the only thing to blame is "driver error" as you have done all you can with everything else so "yes" neck turning is and can be benificial as its another variable taken out of the equasion Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted October 25, 2011 Report Share Posted October 25, 2011 I have been loading rifle shells for over 40 years, so my journeymans card is in good stead before it's questioned. I know for sure what Ackley is talking about is true and most bench shooters do turn necks. They must feel it gives them an edge or they would not waste time on it. I have friends that turn necks on varmint rounds and they are good shooters and are concerned with utmost accuracy. BUT I shoot groups as small as they do without turning necks. I shoot only WW brass as I have found it consistent enough for my goals.Lapua is better but a lot higher priced. I think (opinion) that time is better spent in load development and range time. I do believe in beburring flash holes and necksizing, which I think contributes quite a bit to consistency. Brass quality as Kent noted is extremely important I won't mix headstamps and don't shoot anything but WW brass. One other thing I almost left out is annealing which I do about every 3 firings that keeps the neck tension consistent. ANNEAL THE NECK ONLY. Consistency yields accuracy. Bench guns are generally cut so you have to turn it is not an option, factory/hunting and tactical rifles have greater clearances and neck turning is way less important, this is why your groups are just as good with varmint type rifles without you turning. Understand why you turn and measure the difference If its worthwhile in your gun carry on- if not forget it! likewise with all aspects like i mention don't just assume it makes things better. Take two guys and the one who gets more range time in will always outshoot the guy who is sat on his sofa with a pile of brass shavings on the floor. Let us not forget the OP has visibly different necks on his brass and it is a from the factory hunting rifle, Junk the brass and get some decent stuff IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redgum Posted October 25, 2011 Report Share Posted October 25, 2011 thats fine BUT dont tell people neck turning "isnt worth it" when you have no idea yourself,if your happy with average un consistant groups thats great bbut others may want that bit more Mmmmm, its funny how some very experienced reloaders seem to agree with me Ackley, I may not have been reloading for along time but I have certainly read a lot about the subject before entering into it and have gain some knowledge from some very experienced rifle builders and reloaders,so don't tell me I have no idea. My loads speak for themselves, have a look on my 308 reload post. Its seems as if your the sort of chap who preaches the tides coming in when all the boats are floating out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ackley Posted October 25, 2011 Report Share Posted October 25, 2011 I didnt say "you had no idea" so read my comments again please,whos agreeing with your apsrt from Kent,he would say I was wrong if I said white was actually white neck turning works,thats the simple answer,these so called gunsmiths over here are lazy and do what earns a quick buck unless you insist on something that they havnt got on the shelf do a proper search with the American rifl;e builders and shooters,were in the dark ages compared to those guys yes i saw your group,well done BUT 3 shots aint a group mate plus you need to repeat it,good luck and dont forget to report back on the results Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redgum Posted October 25, 2011 Report Share Posted October 25, 2011 Ackley, read the quote on my last post,unless someones tapering with your post then yes you did say I had no idea, and 3 shots arent a group, Mmmmmm, not sure if I understand that, maybe its an american thing . I look forward ta posting up some 200yd groups when weather permits. The main thing is, that between us we can help others through their reloading problems promoting safety and good practice,its such a great thing to be involved with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trefil Hunter Posted October 25, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 25, 2011 Let us not forget the OP has visibly different necks on his brass and it is a from the factory hunting rifle, Junk the brass and get some decent stuff IMO. They are all about 0.008 on one side and 0.013 on the other. Think its time to ditch these few as its only a few that this is a problem on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ackley Posted October 25, 2011 Report Share Posted October 25, 2011 They are all about 0.008 on one side and 0.013 on the other. Think its time to ditch these few as its only a few that this is a problem on. buy Lapua you will find there much better Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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