cockercas Posted February 13, 2012 Report Share Posted February 13, 2012 right im trying to get my head around MOA, i know what is stands for, and sort of what it is. but if MOA = 1 inch @ 100 yards, 2 inch at 200, 3inch at 300 ect ect and my scope clicks = 1/4 MOA @ 100 yards. so am i correct that at 50 yards my scope clicks = 1/8 moa 100= 1/4 moa . 1 click elevates 1/4 inch 200= 1/2 moa . 1 click elevates 1/2 inch 300= 3/4 moa . 1 click elevates 3/4 inch 400= 1 moa . 1 click elevates 1 inch am i right or wrong? or back to front. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redgum Posted February 13, 2012 Report Share Posted February 13, 2012 Your right mate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cockercas Posted February 13, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 13, 2012 (edited) yyyyyyyyyyyeeeeeeeeeeeeeeesssssssssssssssss :rolleyes: ( jumps for joy) anything else i need to know? Edited February 13, 2012 by cockercas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vipa Posted February 13, 2012 Report Share Posted February 13, 2012 (edited) yyyyyyyyyyyeeeeeeeeeeeeeeesssssssssssssssss :rolleyes: ( jumps for joy) anything else i need to know? Yep... try to stick to one system rather than mixing & matching... If you like imperial then MOA works best with that, if you are a metric kind of guy then use milirads... converting between the two is not an issue but it just throws something else in there for your brain to have to work with, i.e. a .1mrad click = .36" @ 100 yds etc... or 1cm @100M Edited February 13, 2012 by Vipa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cockercas Posted February 13, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 13, 2012 thank you :good: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redgum Posted February 13, 2012 Report Share Posted February 13, 2012 I find its always best to have alittle experiment at 100yds, in theory as you click left,right and up down the bullet should do the same by 1/4inch. The better the quality of scope the more likely it will be accurate,some scopes need a little tap on the adjustment **** some don't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shotgun sam Posted February 13, 2012 Report Share Posted February 13, 2012 I agree with VIPA stick to one system and do not switch between them it is a recipe for disaster either that get a scope with a drop compensator where you basically zero at 100 yards and if you need to shoot at say 300 yards just turn turret to 300 yards and the cross hairs are wher the point of impact should occur. Sam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cockercas Posted February 13, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 13, 2012 I agree with VIPA stick to one system and do not switch between them it is a recipe for disaster either that get a scope with a drop compensator where you basically zero at 100 yards and if you need to shoot at say 300 yards just turn turret to 300 yards and the cross hairs are wher the point of impact should occur. Sam no need i know exactly were to aim to shoot fox up to 300 meters. i was just expanding my knowledge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted February 13, 2012 Report Share Posted February 13, 2012 Up to 300yrds yes treat it as such its slightly out but near enough to say 1" @100yrds until you get beyond the ranges you would shoot at a fox. Remember if your gun will print MOA at 100 it aint fair to say going to do MOA at 300, that depends on other internal factors like quality of ammo etc. and also your external like wind variation Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cockercas Posted February 14, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 14, 2012 Up to 300yrds yes treat it as such its slightly out but near enough to say 1" @100yrds until you get beyond the ranges you would shoot at a fox. Remember if your gun will print MOA at 100 it aint fair to say going to do MOA at 300, that depends on other internal factors like quality of ammo etc. and also your external like wind variation less kent at 300 yards i can put 5 shots in a smidge over 2 inch. but i understand what your saying. and is moa something like 1.047 inch? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ackley Posted February 14, 2012 Report Share Posted February 14, 2012 less kent at 300 yards i can put 5 shots in a smidge over 2 inch. but i understand what your saying. and is moa something like 1.047 inch? are you turning to the dark side of "dailing in" get those Bergers down the tube,you will see then what can be done Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catweazle Posted February 14, 2012 Report Share Posted February 14, 2012 right im trying to get my head around MOA, i know what is stands for, and sort of what it is. but if MOA = 1 inch @ 100 yards, 2 inch at 200, 3inch at 300 ect ect and my scope clicks = 1/4 MOA @ 100 yards. so am i correct that at 50 yards my scope clicks = 1/8 moa 100= 1/4 moa . 1 click elevates 1/4 inch 200= 1/2 moa . 1 click elevates 1/2 inch 300= 3/4 moa . 1 click elevates 3/4 inch 400= 1 moa . 1 click elevates 1 inch am i right or wrong? or back to front. You're nearly correct. 1 click will be 1/4 moa at any distance, but 1/4 moa is a different amount of inches depending on the distance. So for your table above; At 50 yds 1 click will be 1/4 moa which will equal 1/8th inch at the target. 100yds 1 click will still be 1/4 moa, but that will equal 1/4 inch at the target. 200yds 1 click will still be 1/4 moa, but that will equal 1/2 inch at that range. etc. etc. moa is an angle, not a linear measurement, so one click of your scope will always be 1/4 moa. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cockercas Posted February 14, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 14, 2012 are you turning to the dark side of "dailing in" get those Bergers down the tube,you will see then what can be done yes something i thorght i would never do, but im learning all the time. going to extend the range at weekend and see how i get on at 400,500 yards. You're nearly correct. 1 click will be 1/4 moa at any distance, but 1/4 moa is a different amount of inches depending on the distance. So for your table above; At 50 yds 1 click will be 1/4 moa which will equal 1/8th inch at the target. 100yds 1 click will still be 1/4 moa, but that will equal 1/4 inch at the target. 200yds 1 click will still be 1/4 moa, but that will equal 1/2 inch at that range. etc. etc. moa is an angle, not a linear measurement, so one click of your scope will always be 1/4 moa. yep that makes sense Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted February 14, 2012 Report Share Posted February 14, 2012 less kent at 300 yards i can put 5 shots in a smidge over 2 inch. but i understand what your saying. and is moa something like 1.047 inch? Bullets dont become more accrate at range but some shooters do (its a mind thing) Its a measurement of angle so yes basically and the 1" error increases with range Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vipa Posted February 14, 2012 Report Share Posted February 14, 2012 Bullets dont become more accrate at range but some shooters do (its a mind thing) Its a measurement of angle so yes basically and the 1" error increases with range Actually... not strictly true... some bullets designed for very long range work aren't stable within 200 yards and can give surprisingly big groups... bizarly, once stable, they become very predictable and have the capacity to print very good scores! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vipa Posted February 14, 2012 Report Share Posted February 14, 2012 Don't quote me on it Joe but I suspect your Pecar will be calibrated in cm at 100m which is equal to 0.1 Miliradian :-( easier to work with eveything is base 10 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ackley Posted February 14, 2012 Report Share Posted February 14, 2012 (edited) Actually... not strictly true... some bullets designed for very long range work aren't stable within 200 yards and can give surprisingly big groups... bizarly, once stable, they become very predictable and have the capacity to print very good scores! just like flat base and boat tails,both will work different over a certain range Edited February 14, 2012 by Ackley Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cockercas Posted February 14, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 14, 2012 Don't quote me on it Joe but I suspect your Pecar will be calibrated in cm at 100m which is equal to 0.1 Miliradian :-( now you mention it, i do remember you saying this. now my brain is frazaled so at 100 yards one click of the scope = xxxxx milirad??? 200 yards = xxxx milirad 300 400 ect and will one click = 6mm??? or 5mm??? or 10mm??? scope is a pecar berlin 4-12-45 i think (not sure on the first number) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cockercas Posted February 14, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 14, 2012 wait for it 100 yards = 1cm 200 yards = 2cm 300 yards = 3cm 400 yards = 4cm per click right or wrong Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catweazle Posted February 14, 2012 Report Share Posted February 14, 2012 Actually... not strictly true... some bullets designed for very long range work aren't stable within 200 yards and can give surprisingly big groups... bizarly, once stable, they become very predictable and have the capacity to print very good scores! That is bizarre, I struggled to imagine how it happens but remembered an experience I had with an air rifle that might explain it. I have watched hollow point air-rifle pellets following a corkscrew path to the target, if this corkscrew path was to decay predictably as the bullet stabilised, and the bullet ended up in the middle of the "corkscrew" then there is the potential for a good group. However, at short range ( pre-stabilisation ) then successive bullets might be at a different point on the corkscrew path as they hit the target - causing the large groups at short range. Does this sound plausible ? wait for it 100 yards = 1cm 200 yards = 2cm 300 yards = 3cm 400 yards = 4cm per click right or wrong Nearly, again 100 metres = 1cm etc. etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cockercas Posted February 14, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 14, 2012 That is bizarre, I struggled to imagine how it happens but remembered an experience I had with an air rifle that might explain it. I have watched hollow point air-rifle pellets following a corkscrew path to the target, if this corkscrew path was to decay predictably as the bullet stabilised, and the bullet ended up in the middle of the "corkscrew" then there is the potential for a good group. However, at short range ( pre-stabilisation ) then successive bullets might be at a different point on the corkscrew path as they hit the target - causing the large groups at short range. Does this sound plausible ? Nearly, again 100 metres = 1cm etc. etc. thats worked out ok then because i always work in meters ( only use yards on here). Telescopic sights adjustable at the Milliradian level have become common in recent years. The experts at SnipersHide.com examine these new optics in detail and explain how to use them. Over the last 2 years we have seen a big increase in the number of scopes that offer their adjustments in Milliradian. I am personally a strong proponent of the use of Mil adjusted scopes with Mil based reticles. I find the graduations to be the right distance for both precision and tactical use, feeling we are all familiar enough with Mil Dot reticles to have a basis for understanding how to move forward with Milliradian based adjustments. The problem for most is the need to assign a value in the same way we assign a value to everything else in our lives. The biggest question most struggle with is, “how much is that at X yards in Inches?” Well the easy answer is, you don’t need to assign a linear distance to it because the angular measurement works so well. In fact, what you see is what you need; it’s really that simple. A Mil is a Mil whether it is 100 yards, or 686.792 yards, the number is the same. A Brief Background Before we get started down this road, I need to go over a few numbers related to using a Mil adjusted scope. Now, over the years there has been some confusion in how to term a Mil adjusted scope. For the record, it is not a “Metric” scope or calibrated in meters, nor does it require conversion to yards. By definition a Radian is, “the angle subtended at the center of a circle by an arc that is equal in length to the radius of the circle.” So, a Milliradian is 1/1000 of a radian. When applied to a circle the number we use is 6283.2, and while it has been taught and discussed at length that the number is 6400, that is not correct for a riflescope. Our scopes are calibrated using 6283 and only one scope on the market was ever built using the wrong number, that is the Leupold M3A, who’s reticle is based off the 6400 number… don’t let that fool you, the number we use is the true number of 6283, just because someone did it another way, or has taught 6400, doesn’t mean they are right either. Now, because a milliradian is 1/1000 of a radian, it doesn’t matter what linear distance you use is, the reticle or adjustments subtends 1/1000 of that number. So you have a milliradian equaling: 1 mile at 1000 miles 1 meter at 1000 meters 1 yard at 1000 yards 10 centimeter at 100 meters 3.6 inches at 100 yards (3600 inches) Most scopes adjust in .1 MRAD or 1/10th a Milliradian per click, so this allows the shooter to break up the space between each Mil Dot 10 times for an easy corresponding adjustment. The only exception to this I am familiar with is again, Leupold who uses a .05 adjustment. However for us, we will stick to .1MRAD-adjusted scopes as it makes for an easy transition. There are scopes that have their turrets marked as 1 click = 1cm at 100 meters, which is correct, but it also equals .36 per click at 100 yards. The manufacturers are trying to fulfill that need for a linear number. Lately many of the companies have reverted back to the correct marking of .1 mrad per click. This is the point we want to strive to reach, so that we can break a Mil based reticle down into 10th so we can accurately use the reticle and match the adjustments on our scope. That should tell the shooter all they need to know. There are all sorts of math associated to this, and for those who want to dig deeper, at the end I will provide links for you to further explore the numbers behind this, but for the most part, this is all we need to know to get started. There is really no point in confusing yourself if you don’t have to. Stick to thinking a Mil is a Mil regardless if we hold or adjust, no matter how close or how far. copied and pasted from http://www.outdoorhub.com/how-to/how-to-use-milliradian-adjustable-scopes/ thanks everyone Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vipa Posted February 14, 2012 Report Share Posted February 14, 2012 That is bizarre, I struggled to imagine how it happens but remembered an experience I had with an air rifle that might explain it. I have watched hollow point air-rifle pellets following a corkscrew path to the target, if this corkscrew path was to decay predictably as the bullet stabilised, and the bullet ended up in the middle of the "corkscrew" then there is the potential for a good group. However, at short range ( pre-stabilisation ) then successive bullets might be at a different point on the corkscrew path as they hit the target - causing the large groups at short range. Does this sound plausible ? Nearly, again 100 metres = 1cm etc. etc. Beat me to it Catweazle... 1 click usually = 0.1 milirad (mrad) = 1cm @ 100 metres.. so 70cm @ 700M, 55cm @ 550m, 32cm @ 320m... everything easier to work with.. 6 clicks = 6 cm @ 100m 24cm @ 400m etc.. etc... Yep.. that's pretty much it... good explanation of it actually... at shorter ranges there is no guarantee at which point of the corscrew it will be at when it meets the target so the group spreads right out... once it is stable and followng a steady trajectory, everything becomes predictable again Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted February 14, 2012 Report Share Posted February 14, 2012 Actually... not strictly true... some bullets designed for very long range work aren't stable within 200 yards and can give surprisingly big groups... bizarly, once stable, they become very predictable and have the capacity to print very good scores! Sorry i dont buy that! heard it from a few in my my target days (when many also muttered rude comments under thier breath) . How the heck can a bullet become more accurate at range once it leaves the barrel? how can it reduce and centre? My thoughts are its a cop out to fluke, just as the wind can ruin a group it must also make one, who would say "yep i shot well today by fluke" . I beieve totally that a guy might not be able to shoot as good at shorter range as he might further out as the mind comes into it but not a gun and i aint ever heard any hard science to back that theory up. Hold onto it sure, get better no i dont buy it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vipa Posted February 14, 2012 Report Share Posted February 14, 2012 Catweazles explanation is great! A projectile doesn't need to follow a perfectly straight line, ot just needs to be 'predictable' at the range you intend to use it. It wouldn't matter if it drew a picture in the skay of yankee doodle pigeon as long as it arrived in the same, predictable spot! Some bullets give great results at 1000 yards but are utter **** at 100, to the point you would think there was something wrong with your rifle.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted February 14, 2012 Report Share Posted February 14, 2012 Catweazles explanation is great! A projectile doesn't need to follow a perfectly straight line, ot just needs to be 'predictable' at the range you intend to use it. It wouldn't matter if it drew a picture in the skay of yankee doodle pigeon as long as it arrived in the same, predictable spot! Some bullets give great results at 1000 yards but are utter **** at 100, to the point you would think there was something wrong with your rifle.. It sounds good but what could make it draw inwards to centre predictably the same each time? find me a combo that wont hold a decent group at 100 in anyones hands yet shot bugholes way further out consistantly then i might be drawn into this "theory" more- explain it with hard science even- i have never come across that gun and a i certainly aint owned one. That said i have owned a few medicore guns that recorded great groups at long range by holding onto that mediocre accuraccy very,very well by using good bullets mainly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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