LondonLuke Posted March 27, 2012 Report Share Posted March 27, 2012 Quick question. Want to take my dad shooting next weekend at local clay ground. I am licence holder he isn't but has shot for years. Spoken to ground and they are happy for us to go along. I mentioned insurance and they have flagge that my dad should have his own insurance. Don't want to spend a fortune on this so keen to know if service where one day insurance can be got so as not to sign up for a year. I am looking to get insurance (probably via Basc membership) are there any that will cover me plus one? Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Livefast123 Posted March 27, 2012 Report Share Posted March 27, 2012 I'm not aware of any 1 day shooting policy, is this not what grounds have public liability insurance for and you pay for everytime you shoot an 28p clay? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LondonLuke Posted March 27, 2012 Author Report Share Posted March 27, 2012 They seem to think I need it for anyone shooting. Do any of the insurances avail cover me + 1? I thought you were covered via the grounds but appears not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bombadil Posted March 27, 2012 Report Share Posted March 27, 2012 Country Cover Club has a 6 month option and is pretty cheap. Not sure if it covers clays or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MartynGT4 Posted March 27, 2012 Report Share Posted March 27, 2012 Tell him to join the BASC! Bit pricey for 1 day but hopefully he'll enjoy himself and want to go again Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Livefast123 Posted March 27, 2012 Report Share Posted March 27, 2012 You WILL be covered under the grounds public liability insurance as a paying customer however it sounds to me like they are trying to get out of a possible claim via the "another insurance policy in force" clause that most policies have. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clayman Posted March 27, 2012 Report Share Posted March 27, 2012 (edited) Country Cover Club offers a season option of 6 months P/L £10m cover within membership of the association for £12-95 online. As a group scheme where all members of CCC3 are covered during their paid up membership under a single master policy for the club, this six months cover is still likely to be well under the price of single day event insurance where an individual policy and consequent admin costs are involved. EventSure and companies like them do offer 1 day cover for corporate / charity events etc, but its only likely to be economical per head if reasonable numbers are involved. CCC3's cover is £10m P/L; £25,000 legal defence; £10,000 P/A and hospitalisation cover. Recreational sports covered are: Clay Pigeon / Target Shooting, Rough Shooting, Vermin Control, Wild Fowling, Rifle Shooting (inc stalking), Recreational activities of Hunting and Wildfowling (including falconry, hawking, rabbit, pigeon, game, deer), Angling (including wading), air gunning, conservation, archery, ferreting, stalking, shotgun and rifle shooting; .but excluding Combat / Practical Shooting, Equestrian Mounted Sports, and any activity carried out illegally. Re-enactment including blank firing weapons but excluding edged or pointed weapons. Rambling subject to it being an insured organised event excluding travelling to and from such events. Edited March 27, 2012 by clayman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deershooter Posted March 27, 2012 Report Share Posted March 27, 2012 To shoot at a proper clay club you should not need your own insurance Deershooter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P~MX Posted March 27, 2012 Report Share Posted March 27, 2012 SACS will cover him for all country sports including walkin for just £30 per year ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vulpicide Posted March 27, 2012 Report Share Posted March 27, 2012 SACS are £22 a year if your dads a senior Citizen 01698 885206 tell Elspeth Tam sent you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clayman Posted March 27, 2012 Report Share Posted March 27, 2012 (edited) To shoot at a proper clay club you should not need your own insurance Deershooter Personal insurance via one of the many providers is not expensive. While an individual may well be insured at a commercial or constituted clay ground, they are only insured as per the terms of the policy in force. How often, when attending a shoot ground, have you asked to see and read the policy wording to ensure the levels of cover available in your situation? Has the last premium instalment been made? As most policies have wordings such as the cover applies if the activity is "legal" has the ground breached planning? is their 11(6) in force if you are unlicensed and has any unlicensed person been granted consent to shoot by the 11(6) holder. Has sec 21 been breached? Frankly, for the costs of holding personal insurance that is carried where -ever one shoots, I'd suggest it is not worth trying to rely of third party cover. Lets suggest a nightmare scenario You and a non licensed friend go shooting at Bloggs Farm Shoot. You buy two cards and take your friend out sharing your gun. The newbie causes an accident and a liability claim arises. You pass this back to the club and their loss adjusters deny the claim because: Under 11(6) the newbie must be supervised, and you as the SGC holder had not had that supervision delegated to you by the 11(6) holder. Further, the clubs policy did not include coaching cover, and it was deemed you were providing instruction with no qualifications and without the ground owner's knowledge. As more authorities become dragged in it also transpires the club had run a number of corporates that year and exceeded their 28 day GDOs, so the ground was operating illegally on the day you were shooting, again potentially negating cover - and when the EHO comes into it all, it is found that there is no H&S Policy in place and no Safety Policy Statement available. Most commercial policies proposals have wording like " I declare I have done everything reasonable to mitigate risk etc" - which is generally interpreted to mean that a H&S Policy exists and is complied with. Yes, this may all be unlikely, but never-the-less possible, and if the claim were a big one, you can be sure Loss adjusters will look closely at the obligation to pay under the Club's policy wording. Personally, even though the risk might be small, I would never recommend relying on any third party insurance without having studied the policy terms and ensuring compliance with them. Carry your own insurance means you can be aware of its terms and limitations, and leave you insured where-ever you are , what-ever you are doing, when-ever you do it - provided its within the policy terms of the membership organisation you are insured with by virtue of membership to them - BASC, SACS, CPSA, C-A, CCC3 etc Edited March 27, 2012 by clayman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LondonLuke Posted March 27, 2012 Author Report Share Posted March 27, 2012 Country Cover Club offers a season option of 6 months P/L £10m cover within membership of the association for £12-95 online. As a group scheme where all members of CCC3 are covered during their paid up membership under a single master policy for the club, this six months cover is still likely to be well under the price of single day event insurance where an individual policy and consequent admin costs are involved. EventSure and companies like them do offer 1 day cover for corporate / charity events etc, but its only likely to be economical per head if reasonable numbers are involved. CCC3's cover is £10m P/L; £25,000 legal defence; £10,000 P/A and hospitalisliaation Am I reading this correctly that if I pay £12.95 then he will be covered for the day (and following 5 months and 29 days) and that is the only cost involved? On the fence with all of this. It is a proper clay ground and the woman was vague on insurance. Insisting I had it as sgc holder but making less of a reference to dad other than "well it would be best wouldn't it" Shame Basc doesn't offer plus one cover but guess to vague and difficult. Think they will be who I go with regardless of how I resolve dad situation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pontbeck Posted March 27, 2012 Report Share Posted March 27, 2012 From your last post, I can`t get my head around how the woman thinks you have insurance as you have a SGC. Why ! I agree with a previous poster that if it`s a good clay ground with CPSA links you do not need insurance whoever you are. My local ground has at least one or two stag groups each Saturday any where between 6 and 30 in a group. Most have never held a gun before, they are taken out by instructors and shoot a 25 bird competition, after some schooling. All done very safely and covered by the grounds insurance. If you are to shoot regularly you need insurance, in fact if you shoot game most estates will not accept you unless you had insurance and it`s mandatory in most shooting syndicates. I, personally, would not be comfortable to shoot with you if you didn`t` have insurance but not for a one off day at the clays with your dad on a properly run ground. Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deershooter Posted March 27, 2012 Report Share Posted March 27, 2012 Yes, you try and claim on any other insurance and they will tell you to claim on the clubs insurance, dont know what clubs you shoot at but if they dont pay for there insurance premium it time you found a proper club like Orston shooting ground. There must be over 40000 shooters insured in this country tell me how many have made a successful claim on there own insurance whilst shooting at a club Taking aside the members of the C.P.S.A. do a check with the local club shooters who dont shoot live quarry and I bet less than 2% have there own insurance Deershooter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clayman Posted March 27, 2012 Report Share Posted March 27, 2012 In all licensed shooting there are about 600,000 gun owners - and at least a similar number of VCR Act regulated air-gun owners. About 200,000 can be identified as clearly having dedicated insurance via BASC, CPSA, NSRA, NRA, SACS, C-A, CCC3 etc - and a large number will have cover because they are part of an insured syndicate or club. Never-the-less, it still appears that at least half all licensed shooters, and probably an even bigger portion of air-gun shooters, participate without insurance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LondonLuke Posted March 27, 2012 Author Report Share Posted March 27, 2012 Thank you for all your help, that is very interesting. I think I probably got unlucky with the person I spoke to, they seemed knowledgeable about most things but not the insurance issue. I was intending on joining BASC (despite being a clay shooter) as this seems the best option, anyway so I will join this in advance to be covered and worry about the rest at a later point. The club is a serious outfit (have shot there before) and it has various stag do's etc and lots of ground coverage with regards to different shoots etc. I am confident they will have all the necessary so wont worry unduly about the insurance for my dad. Now, what carts to buy!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pontbeck Posted March 27, 2012 Report Share Posted March 27, 2012 Yes, always something to worry about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David BASC Posted March 28, 2012 Report Share Posted March 28, 2012 A few points if I may. Firstly, a claim can only be successfully made against someone who is liable in law. It’s very true that without knowing what the terms and conditions of the policy are, what endorsements or warrants apply you will not know how or when a claim may be rejected. When we go to a sports facility, be it a sports centre, our rugby club, or our local 10 pin bowling ally, we assume that liability cover is in place and we are injured fro any loss caused by negligent staff working at the facility or indeed any failure in the facility itself (slips, trips, falls etc). It probably is. I would say it would be odd for any clay club not to be insured, although there may well be limits on guests. And the same for anyone operating as a clay shooting club or ground by way of business, not least of all there is an issue with compulsory insurance for employees. How liable though is the club if I alone do something negligent that causes a loss to a third party? I see about 60 claims a year on the BASC policy, and many of these come from clubs and syndicates, in the vast majority of cases, I would say in excess of 99%, its ONLY the individual that caused the loss who is sued and not the club, syndicate or officers of the shoot. So back to your original question, ask the ground if your Dad is insured under their policy or not. Ask Dad to check his home insurance policy, this may cover him, If not you may wish to visit another ground. Alternatively Dad could join any of the organisations offering insurance. David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LondonLuke Posted March 28, 2012 Author Report Share Posted March 28, 2012 A few points if I may. Firstly, a claim can only be successfully made against someone who is liable in law. It’s very true that without knowing what the terms and conditions of the policy are, what endorsements or warrants apply you will not know how or when a claim may be rejected. When we go to a sports facility, be it a sports centre, our rugby club, or our local 10 pin bowling ally, we assume that liability cover is in place and we are injured fro any loss caused by negligent staff working at the facility or indeed any failure in the facility itself (slips, trips, falls etc). It probably is. I would say it would be odd for any clay club not to be insured, although there may well be limits on guests. And the same for anyone operating as a clay shooting club or ground by way of business, not least of all there is an issue with compulsory insurance for employees. How liable though is the club if I alone do something negligent that causes a loss to a third party? I see about 60 claims a year on the BASC policy, and many of these come from clubs and syndicates, in the vast majority of cases, I would say in excess of 99%, its ONLY the individual that caused the loss who is sued and not the club, syndicate or officers of the shoot. So back to your original question, ask the ground if your Dad is insured under their policy or not. Ask Dad to check his home insurance policy, this may cover him, If not you may wish to visit another ground. Alternatively Dad could join any of the organisations offering insurance. David A few points if I may. Firstly, a claim can only be successfully made against someone who is liable in law. It’s very true that without knowing what the terms and conditions of the policy are, what endorsements or warrants apply you will not know how or when a claim may be rejected. When we go to a sports facility, be it a sports centre, our rugby club, or our local 10 pin bowling ally, we assume that liability cover is in place and we are injured fro any loss caused by negligent staff working at the facility or indeed any failure in the facility itself (slips, trips, falls etc). It probably is. I would say it would be odd for any clay club not to be insured, although there may well be limits on guests. And the same for anyone operating as a clay shooting club or ground by way of business, not least of all there is an issue with compulsory insurance for employees. How liable though is the club if I alone do something negligent that causes a loss to a third party? I see about 60 claims a year on the BASC policy, and many of these come from clubs and syndicates, in the vast majority of cases, I would say in excess of 99%, its ONLY the individual that caused the loss who is sued and not the club, syndicate or officers of the shoot. So back to your original question, ask the ground if your Dad is insured under their policy or not. Ask Dad to check his home insurance policy, this may cover him, If not you may wish to visit another ground. Alternatively Dad could join any of the organisations offering insurance. David Thank you David. I really appreciate your input as I often see you discussing the finer points of insurance on here. I will speak again to the club and understand fully the position with them. I will also investigate into the other insurance options available and see which covers him best. One technical BASC point, can you joking BASC online and is your insurance immediate from this point. Is there something you can print which will show you are insured from this point onwards? Thanks again Luke Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David BASC Posted March 28, 2012 Report Share Posted March 28, 2012 If you join on line, you get an e-mail confirmation back with your memberhip number on it. David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brett1985 Posted March 30, 2012 Report Share Posted March 30, 2012 its a shame that day cover isnt available, s im sure plenty of people would use it! however, i think that the reason for this is that the liability insurance you get when becoming a memeber of any of the various organisations only ususally cost between £6 - £9 pound for the year anyway. the rest is fee's added by the company for other area's. hence the reason why CCC3 can give the same cover as BASC for a third of the price. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clayman Posted April 1, 2012 Report Share Posted April 1, 2012 (edited) its a shame that day cover isnt available, s im sure plenty of people would use it! however, i think that the reason for this is that the liability insurance you get when becoming a memeber of any of the various organisations only ususally cost between £6 - £9 pound for the year anyway. the rest is fee's added by the company for other area's. hence the reason why CCC3 can give the same cover as BASC for a third of the price. Its pure economics. One day policies are available from event insurers, but the admin costs of issuing a stand alone one person policy are the same for a 1 day policy as a one year one. Further, all membership scheme providers ( ie you join BASC / COPSA etc and get bundled insurance), can offer their rates because they are buying in bulk in advance. The result is its cheaper to buy 6mths or a year by joining a scheme than it is to get a broker to arrange a one day policy. In c³'s case, the underwriting cost of one day / one month / 6 months cover for a member is identical, so what would the point be of offering 1 days cover for the same price as 6months? Even if its only needed for the day, its still available for the remainder of the period. At £12-95 its not exactly a fortune, and gives peace of mind, plus the other 30 odd benefits offered within c³ membership remain valid for the remainder of the period and may provide useful savings in other areas. Edited April 1, 2012 by clayman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.