Bomber Command

[NickS]

The arguments about policy can go on and on but the memorial is to those who fought and died for their country. To get into an aircraft night after night, knowing what the odds were, requires a special sort of bravery. That is what is being celebrated and those who lost their lives being remembered for the brave men they were. It is 20 years since the statue of Bomber Harris was erected outside the RAF Church, St Clement Danes; now it is the turn of the men who actually took the risks.

 

Let us also not forget the psychological effects. Many were deeply disturbed by what they were expected to do. Some so much that they broke down during operations and were labelled as having "Lack of Moral Fibre" and stripped of their rank. Another veteran, Leornard Cheshire VC, went on to found the organisation that carries his name.

 

Nick

[88b]

A very small minority - my son is 24, done a tour in Iraq and 2 in Afghan and they've now told him he is redundant. BTW I did 14 years in RAF do my opinion is qualified.

 

Nige

 

I have a nephew who was discharged with PTSD last year, I've no idea how this redundancy works while they still recruit. I must be lucky with the young people I know although I only need to go to Basildon or Southend to see the results of a lack of chlorine in the gene pool.

[Grandalf]

The Senior Brass of Bomber Command did NOT select Dresden as a target.

It was on the LIST of targets selected by a committee of politicians and advisers.

Bomber Command then selected one from the list based on priorities, resources available and, above all, the weather.

How do I know this was so?

My wifes father was the planning officer for this, and many other, raids. (Penemunde etc).

 

His life was later to become one long round of being hounded by the gutter press trying to get the 'inside' story.

Being of the old school - fighter pilot in WW1 - He never talked to them about something he considered was not their business to know. If Churchill wanted to talk then that was up to him - but he never did.

The old man died and his widow burned all his diaries, log-books and papers so that his wishes would be respected.

 

Trouble with all the modern pundits is that they look with hindsight.

I am old enough to remember the latter part of the war - just. Belsen and other places had been found, almost every family in the land had lost someone. The country was war weary. Nobody cared at the time.

Later the Yanks dropped the big bombs on Japan - again nobody cared. It just got the job done and the boys home.

 

Later, much later in many cases, people got to thinking with hindsight.

Always a bad thing where history in concerned.

 

The Bomber Boys were incredibly brave and their hour in the lime light is long overdue. My brother-in-law was an air gunner and its all far too late for him - he died 5 years ago.

Edited July 5, 2012 by Grandalf

[digger]

As it was, Churchill and the chiefs of staff permitted Harris to pursue to the blazing end the policy they themselves mandated in 1942. he was the enforcer not the architect.

The killing of civilians must be deplored but Nazi Germany represented a historic evil. Up to the last day of the war Hitlers people inflicted appalling suffering on the innocent. The ruination of their cities and the deaths of the inhabitants appears to be the price they had to pay for the horrors they unleashed on the western world.

strange we can poor scorn on Harris yet no mention of the civillians killed by the atomic bombs. Both evil nations but Nagasaki and Hiroshima were deemed a means to an end? ?

[la bala]

dresden, what about coventry

[Kes]

It is easy with hindsight to suggest what might, should have, been - we now live in a world where our lives arent threatened, our men will not be systematically killed to make way for a master race and a thousand year reich. Our cities are no longer being being levelled.

We are not facing a nation which elected their chancellor Hitler, who machine - gunned columns of refugees who murdered millions of jews unspeakably etc etc.

 

I for one am proud to be able and look back and think what would have been a better way but I have to say I cant see one beyond what was done in the name of survival and to ensure the demise of a regime and a widely held belief in the German population that Germany would lead the world to a 'golden future'.

 

Whatever thoughts one may have, you owe these men and others the thanks due for allowing you to survive to criticise them. They literally gave everything so Britain would survive and, faced with their nightly ordeal flew to their deaths in hostile skies.

 

Shame on you who speak ill of them, shame for making these brave men seem otherwise, shame for allowing so many who survived to suffer criticism and not the praise they deserved and to eventually die in doubt.

 

I'm with Grandalf and think Bruno22rf, sad beyond belief.

Edited July 6, 2012 by Kes

[wildtrax]

it always amazes me that bomber command has received so much criticism over the years, that some people beleave germany should be able to invade poland, france, plan to invade britain, march into russia where millions were slaughted round up and murder 6 million jews, send doodle bugs and v2s to randomley drop on schools and hospitals in and around london, flaten coventry. and some peoples response we shudent have droped bombs on germany, someone might get hurt.

[ordnance]

It is easy with hindsight to suggest what might, should have, been - we now live in a world where our lives arent threatened, our men will not be systematically killed to make way for a master race and a thousand year reich. Our cities are no longer being being levelled.

We are not facing a nation which elected their chancellor Hitler, who machine - gunned columns of refugees who murdered millions of jews unspeakably etc etc.

 

I for one am proud to be able and look back and think what would have been a better way but I have to say I cant see one beyond what was done in the name of survival and to ensure the demise of a regime and a widely held belief in the German population that Germany would lead the world to a 'golden future'.

 

Whatever thoughts one may have, you owe these men and others the thanks due for allowing you to survive to criticise them. They literally gave everything so Britain would survive and, faced with their nightly ordeal flew to their deaths in hostile skies.

 

Shame on you who speak ill of them, shame for making these brave men seem otherwise, shame for allowing so many who survived to suffer criticism and not the praise they deserved and to eventually die in doubt.

 

I'm with Grandalf and think Bruno22rf, sad beyond belief.

 

I don't see any posts criticising the men of bomber command. Some question the deliberate targeting of civilians. If some think deliberately targeting and killing civilians in war is OK that's up to them.

 

dresden, what about coventry

 

What about coventry. If it was wrong for the Germans to target civilians in Coventry then it was wrong for bomber command to target civilians on Dresden.

Edited July 6, 2012 by ordnance

[beeredup]

it always amazes me that bomber command has received so much criticism over the years, that some people beleave germany should be able to invade poland, france, plan to invade britain, march into russia where millions were slaughted round up and murder 6 million jews, send doodle bugs and v2s to randomley drop on schools and hospitals in and around london, flaten coventry. and some peoples response we shudent have droped bombs on germany, someone might get hurt.

 

Very well said! wars are horrible things where the one that can handle/ deal out the most pain and destruction wins! its not a dafodil delivery competition! for these brave gentlemen to be shunned by even the person responsible for selflessly and fearlessly carrying out missions that with out doubt contributed to us winning the war! maybe Churchill shunned them due to his own guilt at what he had asked of them?

[ordnance]

Very well said! wars are horrible things where the one that can handle/ deal out the most pain and destruction wins! its not a dafodil delivery competition! for these brave gentlemen to be shunned by even the person responsible for selflessly and fearlessly carrying out missions that with out doubt contributed to us winning the war! maybe Churchill shunned them due to his own guilt at what he had asked of them?

 

Both the RAF and USAAF bombed Dresden causing a very high level of destruction and casualties. Later, Churchill issued a memo criticising ‘acts of terror and wanton destruction’ in reference to the attack. The Air Ministry and Harris were stunned by this, as it had been Churchill himself who instigated the raid. Churchill withdrew the memo but it was a sign of things to come.

[Kes]

I don't see any posts criticising the men of bomber command. Some question the deliberate targeting of civilians. If some think deliberately targeting and killing civilians in war is OK that's up to them.

 

The term ' by inference' springs to mind, if you die bombing cities and someone criticises the bombing of cities, doesnt that mean that what you did was pointless or worse and you died without purpose and your actions were unacceptable.

The germans always said they were 'following orders'. I think our guys thought that what they were doing was necessary and in defence of their country. I think that rates as implied criticism.

[Grandalf]

Both the RAF and USAAF bombed Dresden causing a very high level of destruction and casualties. Later, Churchill issued a memo criticising ‘acts of terror and wanton destruction’ in reference to the attack. The Air Ministry and Harris were stunned by this, as it had been Churchill himself who instigated the raid. Churchill withdrew the memo but it was a sign of things to come.

 

In regards to Dresden 'ordnance' hits the nail right on the head.

 

The Bomber Command Top Brass were relatively old men, they had all served in the WW1, and were going to be discharged from the service as soon as hostilities were over and their services and experience were no longer required.

Churchill, on the other hand, was a politician and wanted to stand for parliament again at the end of the wartime government. He could not afford to be involved in anything of a dubious nature. The RAF chaps were looking to the past. Churchill was looking to his future. He didn't need Bomber Command anymore so he dumped them.

 

(We have just come through a similar situation with Mr Blair's involvement in Iraq and Afghanistan).

 

My father-in-law - involvement in this episode of history previously mentioned - had risen from Territorial Army Private in 1914 to Air Vice Marshall in 1945. He was scrapped within months of the end of the war. (Services no longer required).

 

Churchill had other plans - for himself.