FAC variation - can anyone tell me why..........

[redlion]

I received my FAC in May after a wait of over 3 months, well that was OK, I guess the authorities need to be careful who they grant licenses to and promptly filled one the slots with an FAC air rifle I had waiting for me at my local RFD. It was not long before I realised that I had made a poor choice in the air rifle that I first bought so have now sold that to move on to replace it with a more considered choice. This of course requires me to apply once again for a 'like for like' variation, which I am told will take another 12 - 14 weeks to process. Now I quite understand that firearms need to be regulated but I really do not see why it is necessary to have to go through this hugely protracted beaurocratic process simply to change from one authorised firearm to another of the same type. I have discussed this with a number license holders and RFD's and as yet no one has been able to suggest any good reason for this hideous beaurocratic nightmare. So I am interested to hear from anyone who can put the case for this process and explain what it actually achieves and how it benefits society. I await in anticipation.

[Kes]

I'll pass on your question as seeing as how the process is recorded and you must notify of any change I cannot see, for the life of me, why you have to ask for permission - maybe its just another drip of the chinese water torture mechanism.

[kent]

I received my FAC in May after a wait of over 3 months, well that was OK, I guess the authorities need to be careful who they grant licenses to and promptly filled one the slots with an FAC air rifle I had waiting for me at my local RFD. It was not long before I realised that I had made a poor choice in the air rifle that I first bought so have now sold that to move on to replace it with a more considered choice. This of course requires me to apply once again for a 'like for like' variation, which I am told will take another 12 - 14 weeks to process. Now I quite understand that firearms need to be regulated but I really do not see why it is necessary to have to go through this hugely protracted beaurocratic process simply to change from one authorised firearm to another of the same type. I have discussed this with a number license holders and RFD's and as yet no one has been able to suggest any good reason for this hideous beaurocratic nightmare. So I am interested to hear from anyone who can put the case for this process and explain what it actually achieves and how it benefits society. I await in anticipation.

 

Speak to your shooting org!

[apache]

The simple fact is it is the law.

 

You need to have an open slot on your FAC. Once you have bought a gun that goes, so one you sell it you need it opening again. Everyone agrees it is silly. I had a similar conversation with my RFD this week as swapping one .308 for another.

 

If the cert allowed you to own 1XFAC air rifle it would be so much simpler, and maybe only do a variation if you want to change calibre?

[redlion]

Thanks for the responses.

Since no one so far has come forward with any benefits of the current system it seems to confirm what I was thinking. Would it be fair to summarise that the current system has absolutely no purpose other than to employ hundreds if not thousands of civil servants (many of which are probably police)in a completely meaningless paperchase to the detriment of not just law abiding shooters but also to RFD's who must be losing countless millions through lost business as a result.

[Boristhedog]

Thanks for the responses.

Since no one so far has come forward with any benefits of the current system it seems to confirm what I was thinking. Would it be fair to summarise that the current system has absolutely no purpose other than to employ hundreds if not thousands of civil servants (many of which are probably police)in a completely meaningless paperchase to the detriment of not just law abiding shooters but also to RFD's who must be losing countless millions through lost business as a result.

 

 

I think you may find that a possible reason for delays is just to wind us up! I doubt there is an excess of civil servants chasing paper, probably very few employed directly with firearms legislation centrally or locally (including police). The process seems just to take ages to complete the simplest of tasks, files probably sit in 'in trays' for weeks while the desk owner does the Times crossword.....

[HDAV]

The bit I don't get is what they actually do in a one for one variation? Tipex?

[Dave-G]

Traceability: Who has it.

 

Once firearms enter the reigistration process with their recorded serial numbers they have to have a trail leading to it's last known location. When you swap like for like, even if identcal, you are applying to acquire a firearm with a different serial number.

Edited July 25, 2012 by Dave-G

[HDAV]

Traceability: Who has it/had it last.

 

Once firearms enter the reigistration process with their recorded serial numbers they have to have a trail leading to it's last known location. When you swap like for like, even if identcal, you are applying to aqquire a firearm with a different serial number.

I understand that, perhaps because it was designed to be a paper based system and is now computerised its unnecessary but still what do the FLO actually do with it when you send it for in for a 1-1 what if you sell a gun and dont want to replace it do you still have to send it in to have that one removed?

[JonathanL]

I received my FAC in May after a wait of over 3 months, well that was OK, I guess the authorities need to be careful who they grant licenses to and promptly filled one the slots with an FAC air rifle I had waiting for me at my local RFD. It was not long before I realised that I had made a poor choice in the air rifle that I first bought so have now sold that to move on to replace it with a more considered choice. This of course requires me to apply once again for a 'like for like' variation, which I am told will take another 12 - 14 weeks to process. Now I quite understand that firearms need to be regulated but I really do not see why it is necessary to have to go through this hugely protracted beaurocratic process simply to change from one authorised firearm to another of the same type. I have discussed this with a number license holders and RFD's and as yet no one has been able to suggest any good reason for this hideous beaurocratic nightmare. So I am interested to hear from anyone who can put the case for this process and explain what it actually achieves and how it benefits society. I await in anticipation.

 

It's necessary because the Firearms Act says it is - unfortunately.

 

It takes that long because many licensing departments are hideously understaffed by people who know very little about firearms. I have to say though that my local force is getting most variations done in less than a week!

 

J.

[Vipa]

Firearms legislation in the UK is full of beaurocratic silliness, paradox and in some cases hypocracy.. it needs an overhaul, it needs simplifying.... not necessarily watering down or making less stringent but simplifying and making less onerous.. The whole country also needs to be playing from the same piece of music rather than by constabulary interpretation...

 

In answer to your question however, that is quite straightforward and simple... you need to show good reason for possession of each and every firearm not just calibre and type..

[JonathanL]

Traceability: Who has it.

 

Once firearms enter the reigistration process with their recorded serial numbers they have to have a trail leading to it's last known location. When you swap like for like, even if identcal, you are applying to acquire a firearm with a different serial number.

 

It's all to do with the 'good reason' requirement which you need for each firearm rather than simply to own firearms. It is that which makes is necessary to individually authorise each firearm. If the law were worded so that you merely needed 'good reason' to be issued a Firearm Certificate, rather than each individual firearm then that would solve the problem.

 

It makes no difference from a traceability standpoint as to whether you own 1 .308 rifle or 10 as long as the dealer records to sale, writes it on your cert and the police are notified.

 

J.

[JonathanL]

I understand that, perhaps because it was designed to be a paper based system and is now computerised its unnecessary but still what do the FLO actually do with it when you send it for in for a 1-1 what if you sell a gun and dont want to replace it do you still have to send it in to have that one removed?

 

They destroy the old cert and print a new one with the new authority to acquire on it. From the legal point of view they verify your 'good reason' to acquire the new gun otherwise they would have no legal basis on which to issue it.

 

You do not need to send your cert in to have gun removed if you do not intend to replace its slot with something else. It will get automaticaly removed when your cert next goes in to them for any reason.

 

J.

[HDAV]

So the tracibilty has naff all to do with it the same gun can be on several certs at the same time.....

[Dave-G]

It's all to do with the 'good reason' requirement which you need for each firearm rather than simply to own firearms. It is that which makes is necessary to individually authorise each firearm. If the law were worded so that you merely needed 'good reason' to be issued a Firearm Certificate, rather than each individual firearm then that would solve the problem.

 

It makes no difference from a traceability standpoint as to whether you own 1 .308 rifle or 10 as long as the dealer records to sale, writes it on your cert and the police are notified.

 

J.

 

Not in this case:

 

This topic enquires about a one for one, like for like replacement variation - which has already satisfied the good reason to acquire it. The serial number is therefore the only requirement in this case that needs attention. The rifle/serial number has been declared disposed of from the ticket holder who will NEED authority to acquire a same caliber replacement.

-

[JonathanL]

So the tracibilty has naff all to do with it the same gun can be on several certs at the same time.....

 

It could be on several certs and a RFD's register as well. In the latter case the police may not even know where it was as no one needs to notify the cops that it has been given to a dealer for test/storage/repair etc. You only need notify a 'transaction' and a temporary stay at an RFD is not a transaction for notification purposes.

 

J.

[JonathanL]

Not in this case:

 

This topic enquires about a one for one, like for like replacement variation - which has already satisfied the good reason to acquire it. The serial number is therefore the only requirement in this case that needs attention. The rifle/serial number has been declared disposed of from the ticket holder who will NEED authority to acquire a same caliber replacement.

-

 

No the previous firearm satisfied the 'good reason' requirement - not the one you want to change it for. The slot you have allows you to acquire one firearm. You acquire the firearm. If you get rid of it you still have to demonstrate 'good reason' to be authorised to acquire another gun. the authority applies to the individual firearm only.

 

J.

[Dave-G]

It could be on several certs and a RFD's register as well. In the latter case the police may not even know where it was as no one needs to notify the cops that it has been given to a dealer for test/storage/repair etc. You only need notify a 'transaction' and a temporary stay at an RFD is not a transaction for notification purposes.

 

J.

 

I wouldn't want to be the guy who tells his FEO "I don't know where that firearm is" - and why the F should I? when he comes asking about who has it. Would you be up for that?

[redlion]

Traceability could just as easily be achieved in the same way that shotgun transfers are dealt with and I dont see how the present system of requiring a variation has anything to do with traceability as the FLO does not verify the weapon details, they just take what they are given by the seller / purchaser / RFD who are involved. I do realise that the reason it is the way it is is because of the law as it stands, I am just questioning the reasons, if any, that are behind it.

[Vipa]

Not in this case:

 

This topic enquires about a one for one, like for like replacement variation - which has already satisfied the good reason to acquire it. The serial number is therefore the only requirement in this case that needs attention. The rifle/serial number has been declared disposed of from the ticket holder who will NEED authority to acquire a same caliber replacement.

-

 

No... good reason for each and every unique firearm (by serial number) not each calibre or type of firearm..

[CharlieT]

There is no reason "like for like" variations should take any longer than 10 minutes, that's what they used to take before firearms licensing departments decided to reduce their staff numbers to unacceptable levels and caused the present backlog.

 

As an interesting aside, the ACPO FELWG are at present discussing implementing a new procedure where "like for like" swaps would be made at a RFD without the need for a variation.

[HDAV]

There is no reason "like for like" variations should take any longer than 10 minutes, that's what they used to take before firearms licensing departments decided to reduce their staff numbers to unacceptable levels and caused the present backlog.

 

As an interesting aside, the ACPO FELWG are at present discussing implementing a new procedure where "like for like" swaps would be made at a RFD without the need for a variation.

That sounds sensible.....

[redlion]

That is exactly the solution I was thinking, maybe common sense is not extinct after all.

Where is ACPO FELWG??

Edited July 25, 2012 by redlion

[HDAV]

It's APCO firearms and explosives liscencing working group

[JonathanL]

I wouldn't want to be the guy who tells his FEO "I don't know where that firearm is" - and why the F should I? when he comes asking about who has it. Would you be up for that?

 

You would know where it was though - at the RFD you took it to.

 

J.