sixhills 69 Posted August 9, 2012 Report Share Posted August 9, 2012 Hi Guys just wondering if anyone can help me out. I was approached by my landowner and he informed me he had bought a new rifle and that he wishes me to take it on a test drive as he has not got the time and if he doesn't use it means at the moment and he is worried that lack of use he will have it taken from him. I have not got 243 on my ticket which is closed but he has and his licence is open the land is cleared for 243 and he has told me to collect it from his hous when ever i want to take it out and he will supply the ammo as well. Were do i stand in the law i have heard of people useing the estate rifle before . If anyone has any advice please let me know. What i don't want to do is ring the FEO and he take this off him as he wants me to shoot it for him so it looks like iot is beeing used on a regular bases, Cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gerry31 Posted August 9, 2012 Report Share Posted August 9, 2012 Go directly to jail do not pass go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sixhills 69 Posted August 9, 2012 Author Report Share Posted August 9, 2012 Go directly to jail do not pass go. Why when i am on his land with his gun please explain why i would go straight to jail and not pass go Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apache Posted August 9, 2012 Report Share Posted August 9, 2012 You need to be under the 'supervision' of the FAC holder. That is generally taken to mean within earshot - so that they can speak to you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gerry31 Posted August 10, 2012 Report Share Posted August 10, 2012 The correct procedure is you can shoot a borrowed rifle but only in the presence of the licence holder this can be on land cleared for that calibre or it many be that the holder has an open ticket there is a slight variation to this in regards to an estate gun whereby the licence holder may employ agents and then that can supervise Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alanl50 Posted August 10, 2012 Report Share Posted August 10, 2012 The land owner - certificate holder has to be with you and it come under the heading of "Estate rifle" which allows to to use his rifle while he is present but NOT on your own. Alan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted August 10, 2012 Report Share Posted August 10, 2012 Sounds like manna from heaven to me! Legal is always best. Why not talk to FEO and explain that the Landowner (having spoken to him first) can not always respond to a situation immediately and has asked if you can help when necessary and consequently could you have this rifle on your FAC purely for use on this land. All it'll cost is a variation fee and you may just find out that the FEO has an alternative suggestion. The alternative is to have the landowner close by every six months or so while you poop 50 rounds into the slurry pit to create usage! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bi9johnny Posted August 10, 2012 Report Share Posted August 10, 2012 Sounds like manna from heaven to me! Legal is always best. Why not talk to FEO and explain that the Landowner (having spoken to him first) can not always respond to a situation immediately and has asked if you can help when necessary and consequently could you have this rifle on your FAC purely for use on this land. All it'll cost is a variation fee and you may just find out that the FEO has an alternative suggestion. The alternative is to have the landowner close by every six months or so while you poop 50 rounds into the slurry pit to create usage! top answer :good: only way to go i thinks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDAV Posted August 10, 2012 Report Share Posted August 10, 2012 The alternative is to have the landowner close by every six months or so while you poop 50 rounds into the slurry pit to create usage! Might as well buy a box of shells, pull the heads, empty the powder into a tub, pop the primer out and give it all to a reloader...... Better to speak to FEO and see if you can the gun on your FAC so you can you can deal with an issue on landowners behalf or similar (I guess it will partly depend on landowner) But if a Landowner can hire someone to supervise using estate rifle clause, why cant the landowner "hire" the OP to supervise himself? As far as i understand the "estate rifle clause was to allow a an "estate" owner (Lord bignobbly etc) to let his "chums" go and shoot his deer with one of his guns under supervision of his game keeper/ghillie etc with out requiring the "Chum" requiring FAC and everything else..... SIxhills worth you putting in for a .243 and getting landowner to buy you rounds? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted August 10, 2012 Report Share Posted August 10, 2012 i would speak to the landowner and explain it needs to go onto your ticket via a variation, that way all is good no questions can be asked. round count is the biggest crock ever, target shooters have more need than a guy who shoots ten rounds a year and kills ten foxes? Rubbish i aint having it, i know full time keepers who dont fire twenty rounds a year through thier foxing guns Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharlieT Posted August 10, 2012 Report Share Posted August 10, 2012 HDAV For an employee to qualify to use his employers "estate rifle" the said rifle must also be on the employee's fac and then the rifle can also be used by a guest in the presence of the employee. Hope that makes sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDAV Posted August 10, 2012 Report Share Posted August 10, 2012 (edited) HDAV For an employee to qualify to use his employers "estate rifle" the said rifle must also be on the employee's fac and then the rifle can also be used by a guest in the presence of the employee. Hope that makes sense. So it has to be on the supervising persons FAC? That makes sense so looks like it should go on the OP's FAC which is sensible. Question is how did land owner get a .243 if he thinks he is going to loose it so soon? Edited August 10, 2012 by HDAV Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sixhills 69 Posted August 10, 2012 Author Report Share Posted August 10, 2012 Never thought it would be that complicated but i wanted to check as i dodn't want to get into trouble i think i will sit down with my land owner and discuss the best way forward after i have explained the legal issues with him. Thanks for all your help realy apprecaited Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sixhills 69 Posted August 10, 2012 Author Report Share Posted August 10, 2012 So it has to be on the supervising persons FAC? That makes sense so looks like it should go on the OP's FAC which is sensible. Question is how did land owner get a .243 if he thinks he is going to loose it so soon? He doesn't think he is going to loose it soon but he will only shot it once or twice a year and use not one box of rounds he wanted it for stalking but he is concerend about if he doesn't use enough ammo firearms will say he has no use for it. He can afford to say "oh i think i will go stalking it scotland this weekend" and he can afford to go not like most of us that would have to save up for the year for that couple of days stalking. Its Nice to have the money to do these things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted August 10, 2012 Report Share Posted August 10, 2012 OK, Guys, Noted, no more attempts to inject a little humour. Sad really though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bedwards1966 Posted August 10, 2012 Report Share Posted August 10, 2012 You don't need to use many rounds, if it's conditioned for deer/fox then he won't be expected to use many. If you shot 3 per year that's still showing you have good reason for it. To avoid worry, the easiest solution would probably be for him to go buy some bullets for reloading, buy a box of 100 for somewhere round the £30 mark, and just make sure they are entered on his certificate. The police don't need to know if he's bought cases, primers and powder, they'll assume they've been reloaded. Should be enough to last until the renewal, they don't expect you to be firing 100 rounds per week. As to the estate rifle clause, I had it looked into some time ago while waiting for my FAC. It could be that you are fine to use his rifle without his direct supervision, however it's not clear and the BASC take on it was that the FAC holder needs to be within sight and sound of the person using it. They may be wrong, but I would not want to chance it without having the FAC holder present. As it is, this is probably a great time for you to get permission for that calibre on your certificate, as you know someone with land that is cleared for it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonathanL Posted August 10, 2012 Report Share Posted August 10, 2012 The land owner - certificate holder has to be with you and it come under the heading of "Estate rifle" which allows to to use his rifle while he is present but NOT on your own. Alan It's the 'occupier' or his servent. It does not need to be the owner of the land. J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonathanL Posted August 10, 2012 Report Share Posted August 10, 2012 He doesn't think he is going to loose it soon but he will only shot it once or twice a year and use not one box of rounds he wanted it for stalking but he is concerend about if he doesn't use enough ammo firearms will say he has no use for it. He can afford to say "oh i think i will go stalking it scotland this weekend" and he can afford to go not like most of us that would have to save up for the year for that couple of days stalking. Its Nice to have the money to do these things. He won't lose it. There is no minimum amount you need to shoot a rifle in order to keep it (don't listen to people who tell you otherwise), the issue is entirely one of 'good reason'. If you can demonstrate the relevant good reason then you are entitled to continue to possess the firearm. You may only shoot one round every 5 years but that is not, of its self, evidence of lack of good reason. I know people who have rifles they only use for big game in Africa once in a blue moon yet they don't get them taken off them for lack of use. It's a case of being reasonable and there are many legitmate uses for firearms that you don't indulge in every day of the week. As a rather esoteric example. There is nothing in law which says you cannot have an firearm on FAC for personal defence. If you do happen to possess a firearm for that reason (and many do in Northern Ireland) then it can hardly be argued by the police that you no longer have 'good reason' to possess it come renewal time based on the fact that you haven't shot anyone in the previous five years! J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sixhills 69 Posted August 10, 2012 Author Report Share Posted August 10, 2012 Thanks Jonathan there is lots of good information in this thread which explains the rights and wrongs and the fact the he possibly didn't know that if he only fired 3 rounds between grant and his renewal he will be fine i will sit down and put his mind to rest. Its nice to know the members can help but thier is always one the has ta say you'll got direct to jail with no explanation. Thanks you to all the memebrs that have posted infromation relivant to the thread it is apprecaited. Thanks Again Sixhills69 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharlieT Posted August 10, 2012 Report Share Posted August 10, 2012 It's the 'occupier' or his servent. It does not need to be the owner of the land. J. Yes we all know that but had you read the origional post you would have seen that Alan was replying to the specific question asked about the landowner rifle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gerry31 Posted August 10, 2012 Report Share Posted August 10, 2012 O dear dont be like that I did put another post on to explain the legal aspect but to be honest all this information is freely available from many web sites as an old barrister friend once said only ask the questions to which you already know the answer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sixhills 69 Posted August 11, 2012 Author Report Share Posted August 11, 2012 O dear dont be like that I did put another post on to explain the legal aspect but to be honest all this information is freely available from many web sites as an old barrister friend once said only ask the questions to which you already know the answer I was always told if you don't know ask those that do.... the whole point of a forum is for people to share information....No wonder some people hate to ask questions on this forum as they are affraid they will have thier heads bitten off. But thanks for the explanation good job im not affraid to ask Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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