goodo123 Posted March 8, 2013 Report Share Posted March 8, 2013 Been to a few ground what use these systems and don't know if I'm in favour or not? Can see the need for them as have seen people taking the pee and having way more clays than they pay for..... Stealing really gets on my bazonkas. However their is the obvious faults with this system.... It doesn't differentiate between no birds (so you can end up paying for nothing). And their is no opportunity to see where the clays are going to come from etc their is one ground what tries to draw a picture to show you but it doesn't work and often end up with a pair wasted on each stand.... Their are also those who somehow cannot operate these and have watched people think they are turning the thing on when all they are doing is turning the delay on/off. So what do you lot think? Yes/no to clay count? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glb8686 Posted March 8, 2013 Report Share Posted March 8, 2013 Can't rely on people being honest though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
besty57 Posted March 8, 2013 Report Share Posted March 8, 2013 makes it easier if you are on your tod Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huffhuff Posted March 8, 2013 Report Share Posted March 8, 2013 I've never had a problem with them, or seen anybody else having a problem with them. One place I shoot have adopted a card system. Their rationale was that something like a pallet of clays per week were being used 'dishonestly'. They load 10% extra to account for any no birds. So, you pay for 100 but actually get 110. They also put both a description and a basic picture so you know what to expect (ish). However, if it's busy - you just watch the people in front. As above, the other benefit is you can shoot solo. I'm all for them. Mainly because the world is full of lying, cheating cretins (and that is a fact-a-roo) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodo123 Posted March 8, 2013 Author Report Share Posted March 8, 2013 Is the card system the same as the plugin system? The ones I've seen give you a 16a 3ph plug to walk round with which does seem a bit daft considering the chip is probably the size of a 2p Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huffhuff Posted March 8, 2013 Report Share Posted March 8, 2013 Is the card system the same as the plugin system? The ones I've seen give you a 16a 3ph plug to walk round with which does seem a bit daft considering the chip is probably the size of a 2p No, the card system is literally a credit card that you slide into he unit on the stand. However, I have and do use the big square block counter things too. As you say, could probably be made smaller these days but they serve a purpose. I was at a ground once where somebody left a counter in the stand. By the time they walked back (only next stand), somebody had pinched it. They had to pay £120 in replacement costs!!!!! (and their round of clays - even though they only shot 2 stands). Luckily, that ground is no more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
washerboy Posted March 8, 2013 Report Share Posted March 8, 2013 only ever shot at parklodge, and they have always asked "any non flyers" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glb8686 Posted March 8, 2013 Report Share Posted March 8, 2013 That's nice to hear as ParkLodge is my choice ground Goodo, this is the card system >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neil3728 Posted March 8, 2013 Report Share Posted March 8, 2013 Agree park lodge have always asked for non flyers, and I've never had any number i've given questioned. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MJN Posted March 8, 2013 Report Share Posted March 8, 2013 Fennes (Braintree) use the claymate system IIRC, they always ask for any no birds and I've never had any problems even when the counter or machine has gone berserk, rabbits I'm told nibble through the cables or water get in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huffhuff Posted March 8, 2013 Report Share Posted March 8, 2013 The card system at the A1 is slightly different but ultimately, it's the same end result and caters for solo shooters (just with separate delay buttons). But like I say, they add 10% on to start to cover broken/no birds. Broomhills used to have rubbish traps with lots of no birds. Then when you go to pay, they act insulted/surprised when you mention the no birds and that you will not be paying the full tally on the counter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloke Posted March 8, 2013 Report Share Posted March 8, 2013 (edited) Almost every ground I shoot at uses a variation of the counter system, pros and cons for them. Pros - The ground save the money they would pay the 'trappers' to button for you, and hopefully pass the savings on to shooters, it also stops trappers from letting 'mates' have a load of free clays (not that this happens, of course! ), as well as saving the cost of 'to see' clays. - If you want to just stay on one stand to practice a difficult shot, you can, as well as not shooting birds you don't want to (e.g.with my balance problems, high overhead birds are a no-no) - You don't have to shoot with a squad if you don't want to. Some novices are very self-conscious about their performance and this allows them to practice in private, until they feel more confident in their shooting. - Just like live quarry shooting, you never know exactly where they are coming from (for the first clay, anyway! ). - In the wireless systems, less trap failures from wire chewing by ground animals. Cons - No witness/extra clay for No Birds, but some grounds will give you an allowance for up to 2 no birds/10% per trap, as long as you let ground staff know and they see the problem, as long as you dont take the mickey. (Don't go back to the other grounds, and tell them why) - No chance to see the clays for free before shooting. - Some of the 'trappers were experienced competition shooters and gave invaluable advice to novices. (And some weren't! ) - It can make it easy to avoid altogether the clays that challenge you, and can encourage lazy shooting. I am sure there are more than this, but overall, I prefer the counter system for Sporting, not so sure about Skeet. Each to their own, I suppose. Edited March 8, 2013 by Bloke Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fiesta14 Posted March 8, 2013 Report Share Posted March 8, 2013 Hi As a novice shooter I went to Ian Coley's ground today to use the card system for the first time. I have to say I thought it was great. Working shifts I miss some of the weekend shoots so this gives me the opportunity to get some practice in during the week when most people are working. The card system is easy to use and gives you a countdown in the form of bleeps before the clay is released. There are plenty of stands so I was on my own and felt no pressure from other shooters looking on. I was able to keep shooting the tricky birds until I hit one (I had to give up on some though) and at the end I was asked how many "no clays" there were and these were deducted from the final bill. I thought it was a great system and will be back as soon as I can for another go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hillmouse Posted March 8, 2013 Report Share Posted March 8, 2013 It's about the only way forward for a ground these days because of thieving cheating scumbags who abused the "honesty" system. I have shot at several grounds using them and always tell them if there were any no birds and have never had any arguments. I find them useful when taking a coaching client around as there can be no doubt on the number of targets shown during a lesson. The cards can be programmed on a countdown system so you cannot overspend. Put perhaps £20 on and when its gone, no more clays. I ran up 438 targets on the old system one day. That was a hefty bill. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diceman Posted March 8, 2013 Report Share Posted March 8, 2013 Used lots of claymate grounds and never had a problem with getting no birds refunded, most even ask how many you have had when you go to pay. I think it is a great system. HuffHuff - I have heard a similar story about 'stolen' counters and hefty replacement prices...very odd when the only people about are members of staff...it is not only punters that can be dishonest... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilR Posted March 8, 2013 Report Share Posted March 8, 2013 Several deduct a percentage, best 10% and worst 5%, of the total number indicated on the counter as no targets and are deducted from the bill. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bakerboy Posted March 8, 2013 Report Share Posted March 8, 2013 The card system at the A1 is slightly different but ultimately, it's the same end result and caters for solo shooters (just with separate delay buttons). But like I say, they add 10% on to start to cover broken/no birds. Broomhills used to have rubbish traps with lots of no birds. Then when you go to pay, they act insulted/surprised when you mention the no birds and that you will not be paying the full tally on the counter. I am with huffhuff on this one. The A1 always load 10% on each card for "no birds" of which there are very few , we never get any back on the card. If a customer returns a card and has not shot as many as they intended they are only charged for what they have shot . The traps are checked regularly by the coaches as they go around, and also the groundsman "Drago" who nutures the traps as if they were his pets . On one occasion a coach had his card removed from the machine whilst talking to a group he was coaching, never to be seen again, we should not let the "few" dishonest people spoil it for the majority. ps I coach at the A1 so have a vested interest and felt I should declare it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloke Posted March 8, 2013 Report Share Posted March 8, 2013 The only ground up here that won't give you anything for no-birds is Brandsburton, who gave us some guff about 'allowing for 10%' in their charges, but if that was the case, they should give some money back if you don't get any no birds- wont be going there again in a hurry, or my 4 mates, Park Lodge and Pinewood will make our money instead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uncle Albert Posted March 8, 2013 Report Share Posted March 8, 2013 (edited) Goodo, this is the card system >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k-XWuJVU3ps That looks like the system at the Fennes where I shoot clays. When you go in you ask them on the desk to put, say, 100 on the card. They always put more. Once you use it in the machine (it won't work without the card) it lets you know how many you have used. Take it back when you are finished and they ask you if you had any "no birds" and they deduct this number from how many used on the card. Its only the size of a credit card and goes in the pocket of your score board. You only pay for what you use. Simples. If you have had a problem with a trap then let them know and they will include the number in "no birds." When a group of us have gone up there we've often had 650-700 put on the card. Split the cost at the end of the session. Edited March 8, 2013 by Uncle Albert Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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