Passionforangling Posted May 15, 2013 Report Share Posted May 15, 2013 As a newcomer back to this sport one of my jobs is to try and gen up on identification. I'm looking at books and also live birds when I can to try and get better at this. One problem I've found is that the standard descriptions don't always seem to match exactly a particular species so I guessed there could be the possibility of hybrid birds. With this in mind I found this site http://www.gobirding.eu/Photos/Gallery.php which I found quite informative and leads me to ask these questions.... 1) just what proportion of birds that you are likely to come into contact with on the foreshore are likely to be hybrid? 1%? ....10%?..... No one can say for sure? And....2) what is the position if you shoot a bird that is a hybrid if one part of it is legal and the other not...if you understand what I mean! Sorry if this has been discussed before but I did a search and couldn't find anything on here..... Any help gratefully received.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barrold Posted May 15, 2013 Report Share Posted May 15, 2013 Good question, i look forward to an answer to this Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anser2 Posted May 15, 2013 Report Share Posted May 15, 2013 (edited) On the foreshore its rare to encounter hybrid ducks and i have only shot one ( wigeon x pintail ) in 47 years of wildfowling. I have also caught a wigeon x gadwall and a wigeon x teal while duck ringing. However what i do frequently see are mallard x domestic mallard. As both are the same species they are not hybrids , just varieties of mallard. ASgain they are uncommon on the foreshore , but in some inland areas where domestic and wild mallard such as the Broadland villages they can be quite common in a large variety of colours from black to white. From a conservation point of view they are best taken out of the population and given the chance I always shoot these mallard varieties first. Hybrid geese are more regulary seen on the marsh as they will join wild flocks of geese and over the years i have shot several greylag x canada geese and once a barnacle x whitefront. On the N Norfolk coast we have a mixed flock of barnacle and snow geese and there a number of hybrids within the flock. However most duck hybrids are likely to have both parents that were quarry species so i would not worry about shooting one. In the case of geese if a skien of snow geese or barnacle geese come over you it would be wise to leave them. Edited May 15, 2013 by anser2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anser2 Posted May 15, 2013 Report Share Posted May 15, 2013 If you go on the wildfowling forum there is a photo of the wigeon x pintail drake I shot last autumn and some years before I posted a photo of the teal x wigeon drake hybrid and the barnacle x whitefront. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penelope Posted May 16, 2013 Report Share Posted May 16, 2013 The Eric Begbie one??? If you go on the wildfowling forum there is a photo of the wigeon x pintail drake I shot last autumn and some years before I posted a photo of the teal x wigeon drake hybrid and the barnacle x whitefront. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ayano3 Posted May 16, 2013 Report Share Posted May 16, 2013 As a newcomer back to this sport one of my jobs is to try and gen up on identification. I'm looking at books and also live birds when I can to try and get better at this. One problem I've found is that the standard descriptions don't always seem to match exactly a particular species so I guessed there could be the possibility of hybrid birds. With this in mind I found this site http://www.gobirding.eu/Photos/Gallery.php which I found quite informative and leads me to ask these questions.... 1) just what proportion of birds that you are likely to come into contact with on the foreshore are likely to be hybrid? 1%? ....10%?..... No one can say for sure? And....2) what is the position if you shoot a bird that is a hybrid if one part of it is legal and the other not...if you understand what I mean! Sorry if this has been discussed before but I did a search and couldn't find anything on here..... Any help gratefully received.... Q1, in my experience the chance of shooting a hybrid is almost zero but I will say 1%. This applies to where I shoot only. Q2, The position is usually in mud up to the 'man bits' unable to move or up to the same parts in freezing water. Keep the legal bit and bury the illegal bit in your footprints in the creek. The chance of this is almost zero, again this is only where I shoot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anser2 Posted May 16, 2013 Report Share Posted May 16, 2013 (edited) Penelope , here is a link for the pintail x wigeon. http://duckandgoosehunting.yuku.com/reply/86366/A-Pintail-X-Wigeon-hybrid#reply-86366 If anyone has been looking sorry it was october 2011 and not 2012 it was shot . Edited May 16, 2013 by anser2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penelope Posted May 17, 2013 Report Share Posted May 17, 2013 Anser, the link is asking for a log in and password. Are you able to upload the picture on here at all?? Penelope , here is a link for the pintail x wigeon. http://duckandgoosehunting.yuku.com/reply/86366/A-Pintail-X-Wigeon-hybrid#reply-86366If anyone has been looking sorry it was october 2011 and not 2012 it was shot . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harrycatcat1 Posted May 17, 2013 Report Share Posted May 17, 2013 anser2 I have put these pics on hope you dont mind only as they are yours and others wont get to see them on that site. Regards Hcc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penelope Posted May 17, 2013 Report Share Posted May 17, 2013 (edited) Thank you Harry. A very curious thing. The head looks very similar to the Baldpate or American Wigeon. Favours a Pintail Drake in all but head. Drake Pintail x Hen Wigeon??? Woodlook20photos20swanton20001.jpg Woodlook20photos20swanton20002.jpg anser2 I have put these pics on hope you dont mind only as they are yours and others wont get to see them on that site. Regards Hcc Edited May 17, 2013 by Penelope Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pole Star Posted May 17, 2013 Report Share Posted May 17, 2013 Just to add to this topic chaps apparently a Canada x Greylag was seen up here in Orkney on the north Ronaldsey bird reserve see the monthly Orchadian bird report by Erick Meek ( RSPB ) log into www.orchadian.co.uk & look for the 11 April page 23 . Always some some interesting reading & there have been a number of stray American wild fowl spotted over the years in Orkney & an American wigeon & an American Green winged Teal are mentioned in that same report . Apologies for my absences from PW for a while to my friends & enemies ! . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penelope Posted May 17, 2013 Report Share Posted May 17, 2013 The are a number of Greylag x Canada's in the Lea valley just north of London. Just to add to this topic chaps apparently a Canada x Greylag was seen up here in Orkney on the north Ronaldsey bird reserve see the monthly Orchadian bird report by Erick Meek ( RSPB ) log into www.orchadian.co.uk & look for the 11 April page 23 . Always some some interesting reading & there have been a number of stray American wild fowl spotted over the years in Orkney & an American wigeon & an American Green winged Teal are mentioned in that same report . Apologies for my absences from PW for a while to my friends & enemies ! . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pole Star Posted May 17, 2013 Report Share Posted May 17, 2013 The are a number of Greylag x Canada's in the Lea valley just north of London. That's interesting Penelope I wonder where this hybrid came from . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penelope Posted May 17, 2013 Report Share Posted May 17, 2013 I have seen a reasonable number over the years in and around the gravel pits in the Thames,Ouse and Lea valleys when out fishing. I don't think that they are that uncommon where there are feral populations of both. That's interesting Penelope I wonder where this hybrid came from . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anser2 Posted May 17, 2013 Report Share Posted May 17, 2013 (edited) The pintail x wigeon was shot from a bunch of about 40 wigeon. I never realised what it was it first as I was in the middle of a cracking tide flight with wigeon pouring into the decoys and any dead birds than fell in the open I left there until the end of the flight. Only when my dogs brought it back as the last of 10 retrieves she had that morning did i realise what it was. I cant post photos on this forum , but I have several more showing a white belly and pinkish breast typical of a wigeon and yet as the photo shows the wings are clearly pintail type. I do not think it is possible to tell which sex had been its father. Thanks Harry for posting my pics. Never mastered the proccess on this forum. Edited May 17, 2013 by anser2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pole Star Posted May 17, 2013 Report Share Posted May 17, 2013 (edited) Here is a question for some one in the know are these Hybrids fertile ? & if so what are the long term consequences if they then cross again ? . Edited May 17, 2013 by Pole Star Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scolopax Posted May 17, 2013 Report Share Posted May 17, 2013 A friend of mine shot a hybrid Pinkfoot x Canada goose in the north of Scotland. A hybrid which I guess could only occur naturally in Greenland. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anser2 Posted May 18, 2013 Report Share Posted May 18, 2013 (edited) The answer to Pole Stars question is not easy as there is no clear answer to the fertility of hybrids. Even the def of just what constitutes a species is debatable in the eyes of some ecologists. Its generally reconised as a number of genetically similar individuals breeding with other individuals within the same population. However there a number of cases of isolated populations maintaining the same genetic structure despite never or only rarely coming into contact with each other. Perhaps barnacle geese come into this category. With 3 isolated world populations. Though the recent range spread in Europe of wild and feral birds is blurring the picture these days. Bean geese have a number of populations that have been isolated for long enough to produce several races and given time may evolve into separate species. Indeed this has already happened in the case of pink feet though even here there is some dispute as some experts beleve that pinks are just a race of bean geese and not a seperate species. In the majority of cases a true hybrid ( inter species crosses ) are infertile as the , i.e. cross a horse with a donkey and you get a mule , but mule x mule are infertile. However if hybrid crosses were fertile unless in a small enclosed population or if the cross gave the hybrids some completive advantage the hybrid genes would become rapidly swamped from the population of the species it bred with. For example if the wigeon x pintail had bred with a wigeon its young would have 25% of the hybrid genes . If those young bred with wigeon then their young would have 12% hybrid genes and then if their young bred the hybrid genes would drop to 6% and so on until the hybrid genes were lost. However if hybrid only bred with hybrid then its possible a new species would emerge , but for this to happen the hybrids would have to be isolated from the wild populations of their parents and their parents would both have to come from very closely related species.. Its a little different with very closely related species that have evolved from a common ancestor. For example mallard populations have become isolated from the main population and evolved into a number of different species scattered across the tropics , for example laysan teal , Phillipean duck , New Zealand grey duck and these will produce fertile hybrids. In New Zealand genetically pure NZ grey ducks are almost extinct as they have interbred with introduced mallard. The reason ruddy duck are being culled in the UK is because they will breed and produce fertile young with white headed ducks in Spain. But both species are closely related and share a common ancestor. In the case of greylag and canada crosses fertile young are unlikely as they are very distant relatives and in two different families , Branta ( black geese ) and Anser ( Grey geese). Edited May 18, 2013 by anser2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pole Star Posted May 18, 2013 Report Share Posted May 18, 2013 Thanks for the post anser2 & was interesting reading & now I come to think of it when I lived in Australia there were those who wanted mallard ducks shot on site as they were crossing with the native Australian black duck . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penelope Posted May 20, 2013 Report Share Posted May 20, 2013 Generally hybrids are not fertile. My only experience is from cage birds when I had canaries many years ago. I used to read up on British finch x's and Canary mules and they were deemed to be non fertile. Here is a question for some one in the know are these Hybrids fertile ? & if so what are the long term consequences if they then cross again ? . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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