Unexpected bullet performance... Again!

[njc110381]

Well for a change, this actually went in my favour. After the whole .22 Hornet saga where the Sierra "varminter" bullets were drilling straight through foxes, I've now had the opposite happen with the .243. Not really tested as yet, but just the one shot really surprised me.

 

I was out last week on one of the estates. Having just got the zero sorted on the rifle the manager came out unexpectedly and asked me if I could deal with a problem roe buck. I was confident in the accuracy of the load, but it was a 70gr Nosler BT and I wasn't too happy about the meat damage aspect of this idea. Anyway, after a short chat it was clear to me that he really wanted this thing shot. The decision was made that although it may not be pretty, it would be humane and that was the only important factor. We headed out on the Gator to look for him.

 

After driving round for a good hour we spotted him about 200 yards away. I put the bipod down on the bonnet of the Gator and watched. I was waiting for a shot to present so there was no risk of hitting the shoulder. My thinking being that this could really be the only possible cause for the bullet not to do the job. He finally presented and I let the shot go. A quick dash of around ten yards and he was down. By the time we had got to him he was dead. As we approached he had fallen on the side that the bullet went in. "Here we go" I was thinking, as I gave him a quick poke in the eye with a stick before rolling him over. I flipped him and to my amazement it was a clean exit of just over an inch. The gralloch confirmed that the bullet had struck a rib on the way in, minced the rear of the heart and exited through another rib, with no fragment damage to the inside of the rib cage at all!

 

I can only think that the combination of a low powder charge and the reasonable distance kept the bullet impact speed lower than needed to really get the bullet breaking up. A couple of days later I nailed a fox at around 60 yards and there was an impressive hole. Not anywhere near as splatty as expected, but it did the job. I'm not sure what went on but it did make me wonder if anyone actually uses 70gr NBT on small deer? And if so, what results have you had? Mine were very unexpected, almost to the point that I would say it failed to do the job it is supposed to?

[kent]

I have shot a Roe buck through the heart with a 95 grn Nosler B/T and got a great entry a totally blown heart and nothing exited but the purple tip (which actually remained under the pelt). The range was about 20 yards. I wouldn't put money on seeing that again though!

As they say "one swallow don't make a summer" bullet terminals are not 100% predictable this is why we work on many negative assumptions. I just shouldn't assume all is fine. At low impact speeds Varmint type bullets are actually great on deer, 200 yards with a light load might be just slow enough to make it behave more like the 95 grn Solid base hunting version. The 70 will by nature of its lighter jacket expand at lower impact velocity than the 95 grn, meaning it can become effective. Try the same at the 20 yards mentioned above with a fairly hot load and expect a very different and messy tale.

[njc110381]

I need to get it out and shoot a lot more foxes to get a better picture, but it surprised me a little. I would also like to stoke up the loads a bit, but am waiting for range day to get a nice comfortable environment to test them in. I want them to break up more in an ideal world.

[kent]

I need to get it out and shoot a lot more foxes to get a better picture, but it surprised me a little. I would also like to stoke up the loads a bit, but am waiting for range day to get a nice comfortable environment to test them in. I want them to break up more in an ideal world.

 

Yep, run them faster then

[al4x]

I was with a mate last year who shot a muntjac with one and he is running them fast, that ran like hell after the shot. When the dog found it the rumen was hanging out of the hole left and the front was absolutely mashed.

Like you though I have used 75 vmax running sensible speeds and the effects on small deer are not destructive.

[njc110381]

What I plan to do is get the load sorted with the 70gr NBT's, hopefully running on the hot side. I'll then pick up a box of light Barnes TSX and with different powders, OAL's etc, try to produce a load that shoots to the same as or close to the same point at up to 200 yards. I can lob a couple in my bullet pouch in case I find myself in the same situation again.

 

At shorter range the job on the fox was quick. It didn't move and it was pretty mangled.

[kent]

What I plan to do is get the load sorted with the 70gr NBT's, hopefully running on the hot side. I'll then pick up a box of light Barnes TSX and with different powders, OAL's etc, try to produce a load that shoots to the same as or close to the same point at up to 200 yards. I can lob a couple in my bullet pouch in case I find myself in the same situation again.

 

At shorter range the job on the fox was quick. It didn't move and it was pretty mangled.

 

Have always found searching for a load with the same zero pointless, might as well just record the adjustment required. I have yet to find anything tangible in windage setting (during a zero wind call) but believe 100% that its possible to get differences, just I havent. How hard is it to know and record a change in elevation and dial it in at the end of the day? A heck of a sight easier than trying to make a load shoot the same place as the last I can tell you! At the end of the day there is much to be said for the guy who knows his gun and his load intimately.

[neutron619]

Well for a change, this actually went in my favour. After the whole .22 Hornet saga where the Sierra "varminter" bullets were drilling straight through foxes, I've now had the opposite happen with the .243. Not really tested as yet, but just the one shot really surprised me.

 

I was out last week on one of the estates. Having just got the zero sorted on the rifle the manager came out unexpectedly and asked me if I could deal with a problem roe buck. I was confident in the accuracy of the load, but it was a 70gr Nosler BT and I wasn't too happy about the meat damage aspect of this idea. Anyway, after a short chat it was clear to me that he really wanted this thing shot. The decision was made that although it may not be pretty, it would be humane and that was the only important factor. We headed out on the Gator to look for him.

 

After driving round for a good hour we spotted him about 200 yards away. I put the bipod down on the bonnet of the Gator and watched. I was waiting for a shot to present so there was no risk of hitting the shoulder. My thinking being that this could really be the only possible cause for the bullet not to do the job. He finally presented and I let the shot go. A quick dash of around ten yards and he was down. By the time we had got to him he was dead. As we approached he had fallen on the side that the bullet went in. "Here we go" I was thinking, as I gave him a quick poke in the eye with a stick before rolling him over. I flipped him and to my amazement it was a clean exit of just over an inch. The gralloch confirmed that the bullet had struck a rib on the way in, minced the rear of the heart and exited through another rib, with no fragment damage to the inside of the rib cage at all!

 

I can only think that the combination of a low powder charge and the reasonable distance kept the bullet impact speed lower than needed to really get the bullet breaking up. A couple of days later I nailed a fox at around 60 yards and there was an impressive hole. Not anywhere near as splatty as expected, but it did the job. I'm not sure what went on but it did make me wonder if anyone actually uses 70gr NBT on small deer? And if so, what results have you had? Mine were very unexpected, almost to the point that I would say it failed to do the job it is supposed to?

 

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but aren't we still supposed to use 100gr+ on Roe? I thought the 50gr minimum was for Muntjac and CWD?

[al4x]

Nope not south of hadrians wall, you just need to meet the energy levels

[Harnser]

I have been trying to put my argument for the .308 over on this forum ever since I have been on here . 150 grain bullet driven by 45 grains of vit 140 and you have the most deadly round for any European deer or antelope . No worries ,no matter what species you are addressing . Lack of confidence in you cartridge = bad shooting .

The load that I shoot travels at about 2,800 feet per second and will knock down any thing . Nice little entry hole and exit hole about the size of my fist . Contrary to the conspirators theroy that it will tear the beast to pieces .

 

Harnser

[al4x]

Far from the best foxing caliber though......

[Harnser]

Far from the best foxing caliber though......

 

I have never had a fox run on with the .308 . If I wanted to eat them ,then that would be different .

 

Harnser .

[njc110381]

Unfortunately Harnser my force are being ***** because of the current badger cull situation. They have taken away the AOLQ condition from everyone who has been through a recent variation or renewal and are being a real pain with the wording. They would give AOLQ on my rifles before, but will not allow my 7-08 or bigger for fox and vermin.

 

The .243 was the biggest they would allow for deer, fox and vermin so that's what I've bought. I'm not a .308 user but the 7-08 is very similar and I agree, there isn't much that gets up when hit with this round, foxes included!

 

Kent - I agree 100% about trying to match two rounds. With different weights it's not going to drop and wind the same no matter what I do but this isn't going to be a rifle I pick up to go deer stalking. I just want something I can load into the gun if I'm foxing and see an easy shot. I don't like head/neck shooting due to the narrow margin for error so would prefer something that I can boiler room them with at a sensible range. I only need to know what the Noslers are doing in varying conditions because these are the rounds I will be using most of the time. The Barnes will wind and drop differently but it won't be by enough to matter for what I want to do with them. If I can get them hitting within an inch at say 100 yards then any boiler room deer out to 100 is going to drop unless it's blowing a gale so hard I can't stand to take the shot. The difference in POI between muzzle and that range is going to be an inch at the most in any conditions I'm out in. There's a saucer sized kill zone at the front end of a roe deer.

Edited September 22, 2013 by njc110381

[Harnser]

I cannot for the life of me understand why some forces will grant a .243 for deer (a calibre that struggles to make the legal limit of 1700 foot pounds of energy with a hundred grain bullet and not grant a .308 that will kill just about anything humanely ) and not a .308 . What the hell is the difference in danger if this is what they are worried about .

I am convinced that it is all part of the bigger picture of reducing the number of legally owned fire arms in this country . Its definitely a post code lottery as to what calibres you will be allowed to own . Chip,chip,chip all the time .

 

Harnser .

Edited September 22, 2013 by Harnser

[kent]

Unfortunately Harnser my force are being ***** because of the current badger cull situation. They have taken away the AOLQ condition from everyone who has been through a recent variation or renewal and are being a real pain with the wording. They would give AOLQ on my rifles before, but will not allow my 7-08 or bigger for fox and vermin.

 

The .243 was the biggest they would allow for deer, fox and vermin so that's what I've bought. I'm not a .308 user but the 7-08 is very similar and I agree, there isn't much that gets up when hit with this round, foxes included!

 

Kent - I agree 100% about trying to match two rounds. With different weights it's not going to drop and wind the same no matter what I do but this isn't going to be a rifle I pick up to go deer stalking. I just want something I can load into the gun if I'm foxing and see an easy shot. I don't like head/neck shooting due to the narrow margin for error so would prefer something that I can boiler room them with at a sensible range. I only need to know what the Noslers are doing in varying conditions because these are the rounds I will be using most of the time. The Barnes will wind and drop differently but it won't be by enough to matter for what I want to do with them. If I can get them hitting within an inch at say 100 yards then any boiler room deer out to 100 is going to drop unless it's blowing a gale so hard I can't stand to take the shot. The difference in POI between muzzle and that range is going to be an inch at the most in any conditions I'm out in. There's a saucer sized kill zone at the front end of a roe deer.

 

I fully understand your thoughts, I do prefer to just wind it in to the revised zero personaly as it takes just seconds- your choice though. Be careful I am not quite understanding your mention of Wind, When I took my Level 1 test I could certainly stand up in the strong wind but the 100 yds drift was 4" , I well remember taking my first shot at the zero target and thinking "aim on the far LHS line" the first bullet just made it into the ring RHS - it surprised me at the time as I thought it would make it into the target LHS not just inside on the RHS ( by safe siding the shot). That was some time ago now and was a good lesson to remember but nothing outruns wind, not many / any made their first group on the zero target that day! You know what happens when you go out with a gun that's about ok on zero? you have to / forced to make a long shot with double or more the error its called the law of ...

After all its not too hard to write say 3 up 1 left on the box of "sometimes" ammo. then return the turrets after the day

[kent]

I cannot for the life of me understand why some forces will grant a .243 for deer (a calibre that struggles to make the legal limit of 1700 foot pounds of energy with a hundred grain bullet and not grant a .308 that will kill just about anything humanely ) and not a .308 . What the hell is the difference in danger if this is what they are worried about .

I am convinced that it is all part of the bigger picture of reducing the number of legally owned fire arms in this country . Its definitely a post code lottery as to what calibres you will be allowed to own . Chip,chip,chip all the time .

 

Harnser .

 

I have had bigger calibres on for fox but I never used them much for such purposes. In deed no shot can be called safe with .243 that is not safe with .308 I fully agree, anyone who thinks otherwise is running too close to the wind! However non the less the basic fact that I actually use 55 grn whenever lamping or operating in areas with stock, 87 grn varmint bullets shooting when stock are indoors / elsewhere and only Deer spec bullets for deer and opertunistic daylight foxes sums up my thoughts better than I might explain says a lot.

Get over the 1700 ft lb if it goes through a deer (which the .243 invariably will) if it (the .243) hasn't imparted all that extra energy anyway going to a heavier bullet / higher energy wont help further as it too is just carried out the other side of the beast into the dirt. I do non the less take on the extra cavitation effect from the larger bullet yet this is a double edged weapon on small / medium deer as popping the diaphragm is far more common

[al4x]

Personally nj I'd get your foxing load sorted out and then have a play with some deer rounds and zero your fox ones and see where your deer rounds shoot. You might be surprised, I zero my 58 grain fox rounds at 150 yards and my 85 grain deer rounds shoot fractionally low at that.