Can I fire a rifle with a SGL?

[junctiontwo]

Thanks all, the info is very much appreciated.

 

My own logical-but-ignorant opinion is that I CAN use the gun supervised by him on his relatives land, however from what he's intimated he'd be loathe to let me. It's not the end of the world, I'm just curious as I've never fired a 'real' gun other than my own SG! Oh, and my old Webley .22 air rifle when I was 13......

 

Thanks again everyone

[Imperfection]

How does the have a go stand at game fairs work then ? I used a .22 sa at a stand before it was fixed to the stand so it couldn't be removed but idea still the same

 

They're classed as a miniature rifle range and exempt from many firearm laws and restrictions.The Army once upon a time used to operate them from the backs of trucks and drive round to schools,fairs etc to let kids have a go.Theres no 'open day' criteria so non members without FAC can turn up and shoot anytime.Sounds odd i know,but this is the truth.

[HDAV]

Thanks all, the info is very much appreciated.

 

My own logical-but-ignorant opinion is that I CAN use the gun supervised by him on his relatives land, however from what he's intimated he'd be loathe to let me. It's not the end of the world, I'm just curious as I've never fired a 'real' gun other than my own SG! Oh, and my old Webley .22 air rifle when I was 13......

 

Thanks again everyone

I haven't fired a cf rifle (but have pistol .38 special and 9mm ) for the bucket list do it overseas far more toys available

[VikingRebel]

How does the have a go stand at game fairs work then ? I used a .22 sa at a stand before it was fixed to the stand so it couldn't be removed but idea still the same

 

Read this. http://www.guntradenews.com/2013/06/14/legal-small-bore-and-the-law/

[dadioles]

It all hinges on the definition of "occupier" and unfortunately it is not defined in firearms law.

 

Back to the "opinion" of the chief constable in the area concerned and which definition of "occupier" he chooses to apply.

 

In practical terms, I do not think you have a problem allowing an unlicensed friend (over age 17) to fire your rifle provided that you are suitably close and able to supervise him and you are on land where you have permission to shoot.

 

Home Office guidance suggests that the definition of occupier should be that contained in the Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981. "occupier".....includes any person having any right of hunting, shooting...........

 

I certainly allow other people to "try" my rifles in appropriate and safe circumstances and do not fear prosecution.

[JonathanL]

if he isn't a landowner it's tricky but possible ( actually less complex than a SG which can only be lent by the landowner.....)

 

It's occupier, not landowner.

 

J.

[JonathanL]

Can I Borrow a Rifle?

A person who does not hold a firearm certificate may borrow a rifle (the ‘estate rifle’) from the occupier of private land and use it on that land in the presence of the occupier or the occupier’s servant. “Servant” would be taken to include a stalker, gamekeeper or ghillie employed by the occupier.

• · The borrower must be aged 17 years or older. If the borrower is 17 years old, then the lender must be aged 18 years or over.
• · The rifle may only be used on the occupier’s land.
• · The occupier’s servant, if accompanying the borrower, must hold a firearm certificate for the estate rifle.
• · All conditions on the lender’s firearm certificate must be complied with.

Relevant Act(s): Section 16 (1) Firearms Amendment Act 1988

Above from Countryside alliance

This from BASC website

http://www.basc.org.uk/download.cfm/docid/DB12FC55-AA2C-4E12-B87529F5D17C4E2F

 

You dont have to watch providing your mate has permission and is a 'servant of the landowner or occupier'

 

Not landowner. It's occupier. The landowner may not be the occupier.

 

J.

[JonathanL]

I suppose that its how you word it, so if you have permissions and you are providing pest control and keeping an eye on the land you could be deemed the servant.

 

I doubt it. I'm pretty sure that 'servant' means more than just doing something for someone. It's equivalent to being under someone's contractual control. Am employee.

 

J.

[JonathanL]

That's a bit unfair, do you fancy a revocation while the case is processed by the court to decide on the definition of "servant of the landowner"? I certainly don't and many firearms licencing offices see things different.

There is a similar situation that occurs on ranges, what exactly constitutes a "club gun". again without an exact written definition and guidance to the police licencing office it can only be defined in a court.

 

We all know the firearms laws are a total mess, that's what you get once you involve civil servants in anything. Non accountable, hard to dismiss and mostly without any practical knowledge of that they are tasked with

 

Occupier, not landowner.

 

The 'club gun' thing is different. Members of approved clubs can be in possession of firearms and ammunition for club purposes by virtue of the club's approval by the home office. The particular gun doesn't need to be a 'club' gun, it can be any gun of a type covered by the approval document. Hence, members can shoot other members guns.

 

The reason that gun laws are a complete mess and way too compicated isn't because civil servants are involved in writing it, it's because politicians want to constantly ***ger about with things for political reasons. I have far more faith in Parliamentary draftsmen with no axe to grind to come up with a workable set of laws than I would any politician.

 

J.

[JonathanL]

How many people are going to be with you when you go shooting with your friend ?

If your friend has an FC for the rifle he has and has permission to use it on the land you are both visiting then he is shooting as 'A Servant' of the person that gave him permission to use it on the land he is using it on.

So as such, he is authorised to let you use it in his company on the same land.

 

Would you like to test that at court? I wouldn't because it's wrong. Someone who has a mere permission is not a servant of the person who gave it and is certainly not an occupier.

 

J.

How does the have a go stand at game fairs work then ? I used a .22 sa at a stand before it was fixed to the stand so it couldn't be removed but idea still the same

 

Miniature rifle range exemption?

 

J.

[JonathanL]

So how does a target club work? You join, have to attend regularly to be able to apply for FAC so you are using a gun as a member but none FAC holder.......... Servant does not require employment, easier to borrow a rifle and use under supervision than a shotgun! But holding SGC makes no difference (prohibited persons rules still apply)

 

If the club hold Home Office approval then that makes possession of firearms and ammo by members (and their guests on guest days) lawful as long as the type firearm is mentioned in the approval document. Clubs can be approved for Small Bore Rifle, Full Bore Rifle and Muzzle-loading Pistol.

 

J.

[JonathanL]

 

Just something to bear in mind if relying on this... notice that you may borrow the occupiers gun in the presence of his servant, but it doesn't say you may borrow the servants gun.

 

You can if the servant has an FAC for it.

 

J.

Do you get many police wandering around this private estate? If he has permission to shoot there, I think he has good claim to be an occupier. A 2 minute call to his FEO will clarify things. How else are you supposed to get firearms experience before applying for your own ticket, if that's the aim? Not that it's needed, in law, but try telling Sussex that

 

Unless he has some form of control over the land then it is unlikely that he will be an occupier. Mere permission to do something does not give you control over the land or any aspect of it's management.

 

J.

[JonathanL]

 

This goes on and on, and IMO thats not correct.

 

Permission is simply that, occupier implies that you own or have the 'right' to shoot over the land.

 

I think that it goes even further than having a right to shoot over the land. Whether someone is an occupier is determined by the level of control they exercise over the land. If they have to shooting/sporting rights then I think they probably would be an occupier as they may control who shoots there.

 

There is a general right to shoot on foreshores (as far as I'm aware) and some common land but the people exercising that right are not occupiers.

 

J.

[JonathanL]

I agree it's a grey area but the land belongs to his in-laws and I would be confident that any sensible FEO would deem that enough to let the OP have a go under supervision. It comes down to the definitions of servant and occupier which seem to be antiquated terms.

 

If I were in the friend's position, I'd let you have a go but it sounds like he won't even let you hold it unloaded, which is him just being over cautious.

 

My opinion is worth what you've paid for it

 

I tend to agree on 'servant'. Occupier is not an antiquated term, is in common legal and every day use and has a specific legal meaning in relation to land.

 

J.

[JonathanL]

 

They're classed as a miniature rifle range and exempt from many firearm laws and restrictions.The Army once upon a time used to operate them from the backs of trucks and drive round to schools,fairs etc to let kids have a go.Theres no 'open day' criteria so non members without FAC can turn up and shoot anytime.Sounds odd i know,but this is the truth.

 

There should be far more of these. The exemption exists in law and sould be utilised, in my opinion. There are still a few, notably in Devizes where they still shoot in pubs.

 

J.

[Imperfection]

 

There should be far more of these. The exemption exists in law and sould be utilised, in my opinion. There are still a few, notably in Devizes where they still shoot in pubs.

 

J.

 

I think if more people were aware of this loop hole there would be and is a perfect way of introducing people into shooting without all the red tape.I still remember shooting an LIA1 converted to 22lr in the back of an army truck at a summer fair in Cambridge when i was a child-many people dont believe me when i tell them this.

[HW682]

 

Just something to bear in mind if relying on this... notice that you may borrow the occupiers gun in the presence of his servant, but it doesn't say you may borrow the servants gun.

 

 

 

You can if the servant has an FAC for it.

 

J.

 

 

I'm not sure if you read that properly before replying.

[JonathanL]

 

I think if more people were aware of this loop hole there would be and is a perfect way of introducing people into shooting without all the red tape.I still remember shooting an LIA1 converted to 22lr in the back of an army truck at a summer fair in Cambridge when i was a child-many people dont believe me when i tell them this.

 

It is not a 'loophole'. That phrase implies that it allows people to do something which Parliament intended that they should not. This is a specific examption from needing an FAC, not an unforseen consequence of bad drafting. It is no more a 'loophole' than is the fact that you don't need an FAC to possess a sub 12ft/lb air rifle.

 

J.

[double10]

Can I Borrow a Rifle?

A person who does not hold a firearm certificate may borrow a rifle (the ‘estate rifle’) from the occupier of private land and use it on that land in the presence of the occupier or the occupier’s servant. “Servant” would be taken to include a stalker, gamekeeper or ghillie employed by the occupier.

• · The borrower must be aged 17 years or older. If the borrower is 17 years old, then the lender must be aged 18 years or over.
• · The rifle may only be used on the occupier’s land.
• · The occupier’s servant, if accompanying the borrower, must hold a firearm certificate for the estate rifle.
• · All conditions on the lender’s firearm certificate must be complied with.

Relevant Act(s): Section 16 (1) Firearms Amendment Act 1988

Above from Countryside alliance

This from BASC website

http://www.basc.org.uk/download.cfm/docid/DB12FC55-AA2C-4E12-B87529F5D17C4E2F

 

You dont have to watch providing your mate has permission and is a 'servant of the landowner or occupier'

right, sorry to hijack thread but, I shoot as a member at my local club using club guns on the club range, in the presence of a range officer. Would it then be illegal for just a member (who has an FAC) of the club to transport the rifle I use to a range at a competition for me to use there? Because I would then be using the gun owned by the club, on land which isn't owned by the club, but in the presence of a member of the club who has an FAC.

[JonathanL]

right, sorry to hijack thread but, I shoot as a member at my local club using club guns on the club range, in the presence of a range officer. Would it then be illegal for just a member (who has an FAC) of the club to transport the rifle I use to a range at a competition for me to use there? Because I would then be using the gun owned by the club, on land which isn't owned by the club, but in the presence of a member of the club who has an FAC.

As a member of a home office approved club you can possess firearms and ammunition anywhere, at any time whilst 'engaged as a member of the club' and as long as the possession is 'in connection with target shooting'.

 

In short, you do not need anyone else to take the rifle to a place where you are shooting a competition, you can take it your self because you are a club member.

 

J.

[Colster]

From my FEO (and I know he is not a legal expert and this is possibly just his interpretation but it makes perfect sense to me)

 

"An occupier of private land is merely someone with permission to be on that land. Not the owner; nor a servant/employee of the owner."

 

I started off shooting a mate's .22LR prior to getting my own certificate and have taken a good number of non license holders out (including some members on here) and allowed them to use my rifles (typically while lamping and I'm playing driver/lamp man). I was also encouraged by my FEO to shoot a .243 of someone else's prior to applying and owning my own.