Heelwork advice needed

[follyfoot]

Thank you for looking at this post, greatly appreciate any advice given, thank you.

 

Following my first post, my now 7 month old Chocolate lab who is the sole dog in the household is progressing very well on his heelwork on lead, and will listen to the "no" command when meeting a passing dog on a leash.

 

I have now moved on to working him off lead on a bridle track used by many dog walkers, he will walk by my side but once again, displays puppyish behavior which I fully understand when he thinks I am not focused on him, and will dash away and not respond to voice , whistle or hand commands. How do I move forward from here? I feel as though I am stuck on how to overcome this issue. He's coming along very nicely in all other aspects, just faltering in this one area.

 

It is very difficult to find other like minded people to work with in this area.

 

Any help would be greatly appreciated as I am a newcomer to gundogs.

[SO3isme]

Hi, My first reaction is to say that you should stop letting the dog off in this situation if you know that (not surprisingly) he is not going to listen when there is more fun to be had elsewhere. You will only reinforce the behaviour. I would perfect the heel work on the lead before moving to the next stage. This stuff needs to be practised away from distractions of any kind if at all possible.

[Dave1087]

Hi, My first reaction is to say that you should stop letting the dog off in this situation if you know that (not surprisingly) he is not going to listen when there is more fun to be had elsewhere. You will only reinforce the behaviour. I would perfect the heel work on the lead before moving to the next stage. This stuff needs to be practised away from distractions of any kind if at all possible.

I agree good advice just remember not to rush the training with the dog take your time and you will have a great dog good look

[PERCE]

How do I move forward from here?

 

Teach your 100% recall before you carry on with anything else, without this you will always have issues. The dog must thoroughly understand that when you call, it comes.

[Elby]

Back to lead work.

Walk the dog in the same places but on a slack lead, the second it goes to move from heel use the "heel" command and a good yank on the lead

[kent]

Once the dog is walking on a slack lead, simply drop the lead across its back without holding it (stage2 effectively) when all is good (ie the dog turns and pay attention to you rather than just walking slow) the next step is to remove the lead and get just the same (be aware that for some reason dogs see heeling with and without the lead very different) to combat this never take the lead off just once and send the dog off to play etc. Take it on and off totally at random and have some sort of release command like "go play" don't form the lead off now legit routine.

If you really struggle when it comes to off lead heeling use treats (this is how you get the head wrap seen in obedience dogs).

 

Others are correct though it seems stages are missing in the dogs training if it plays up when the lead is off, all dogs play up now and again but if you expect it to occur then its entirely your fault in missing obedience sections. The best way to get a good sharp recall is reward and that might be a retrieve, lump of cheese or simply some praise. Dogs are like gamblers though "eternal optimists" so don't reward with special treats every time once the pattern is established

 

Personally for what I do tight heelwork is undesirable, I should be falling over such a dog on the marsh at night and treading on its toes. As most of my dogs will work to the rifle at some stage in their life for which I prefer them to heel hock to my heel (so I can see their reaction to air sent) but I shouldn't encourage you to try this as it tends to make them loose to the point of loosing them to the heel so keep it tight shoulder to heel and check anything different, a very light tap / touch with a light willow wand or similar can work with verbal reminder "a- a" "no, heel" etc.

[Paul T]

Hi, My first reaction is to say that you should stop letting the dog off in this situation if you know that (not surprisingly) he is not going to listen when there is more fun to be had elsewhere. You will only reinforce the behaviour. I would perfect the heel work on the lead before moving to the next stage. This stuff needs to be practised away from distractions of any kind if at all possible.

Wot he said...

 

To expect a 7 month old dog to walk faultlessly at heel off lead is a big ask. I'd only do it for a short time when you know you have 100% control. Use a proper check chain too and not a slip lead when dog walking - Try make a difference between general dog walks and working too so your dog has a clear idea of what they are going to do.

 

Master your recalls (I use a long training lead) and use a whistle. My dogs know 4 short pips and they need to be back at my side - no excuses. I use it in the house, garden, field, everywhere when they are young pups and they get mega amounts of praise when they come and very occasionally a treat. This is your fall-back for everything - a recall with a bird or to get your dog out of danger, it needs to be mastered.

 

Keep work sessions short and make sure your dog succeeds at everything - You should try and make it so that failing is almost impossible and it's really important that you both really make it fun.

 

Lastly, don't rush things - At 7 months there's plenty of time and you'll definitely reap the rewards later.

[markhf]

Let the dog be a puppy, it's no fun if it's all whistles and commands all the time.

 

Never start training as the very first thing in the morning, all the dog wants to do is check out his patch, mark his scent etc after being in all night.

Let your dog run around etc, just keep an eye on him and if you sense he may be about to make a big break for it, get ready to call him back.

Let that morning madness go first, then play with your dog in a way that you can incorporate training, hide and seek is great for recall, it gets pretty boring for your dog if he can see you all the time.

 

My nephews dog lab was exactly the same at that age, so don't worry, it's now 14 months old and has done the odd day of picking up very successfully.

 

Try to stick to one lesson per day, repeated in a series of 3 repetitions a time until you notice the very first bit of body language or eye expression that indicates boredom or confusion and then stop immediately and go back to one task that you know your dog can complete correctly so that you can reward him and finish positively.

 

Always try your best to give positive reinforcement; no reward or punishment for incorrect behavior, only positive reward for the correct behavior, this makes training easier for you, unless you understand complex reinforcement system training in canine behavior and learning.

Don't Rush as you will make things harder for you in the end.

Training animals is very very easy, it's just very repetitive and sometimes boring.

I train specialist dogs for a living, from cadaver to drugs, ( in past have trained gun, attack, protect,security and search) It starts with obedience training regardless of the dogs final training, the lesson plans are simple, it's just they can be so mundane to follow for humans!!

 

Enjoy spending time with your dog and it will work for you both.

 

(Just one final thought, why do you tell your dog 'No' when it encounters other dogs on leash? Dogs are far more sociable animals than we are, most humans are not that warm and sociable when meeting other strange humans, dogs are not like that at all, by stopping a natural behavior with a ,no, command you are subtley modifying your dogs behavior towards protection of you. How? Because if your dog ignores your ,no, command I bet any money you reinforce it with a pull back on his lead, now whenever another dog and human approaches , and your dog is out in the front on its lead, and you tell it ,no, and pull it back, it will start to think that there is something ahead that you are afraid of, so the dog will start to do its best to protect you... Before you know it you have a dog that starts showing dog to dog aggression and barks at oncoming dogs and their owners.

Just a thought for you to hold on to....)

 

.

[follyfoot]

Thank you all very much for your advice. I have studied all the posts and can see fully that I need to go back a bit and its clear that I have holes in my laid foundations (I understand this from my experiences with my horse's while training) I do not hunt or shoot but decided to try gundog training with my new puppy after watching my cousin work his shooting dogs. I have never owned such a well behaved dog and truly delighted with him and want to get it right and do more.

 

I train him in my own fields at home. But while its been so wet walk him on the bridle way. Markhf point did make me think that using the word NO could po possibly make him feel that he needs to be protective when dogs approach made sense and I will loose that from now on and go back to recall and lead work until we have it fully mastered 100%.

 

Being able to draw from other trainers and learn from all your experiences hopefully will make me a better understanding trainer with all my work with my dog and horses too.

 

My goal is to own a well behaved dog that I can trust around my livestock and also other people and their dogs too. I had a lovely summer learning this type of training even though I dont shoot the results so far are wonderful. We have even fooled some hunting type folk we have seen on our travels and they have been very impressed with my puppy and his level of steadiness so far.

[kent]

Let the dog be a puppy, it's no fun if it's all whistles and commands all the time.

 

Never start training as the very first thing in the morning, all the dog wants to do is check out his patch, mark his scent etc after being in all night.

Let your dog run around etc, just keep an eye on him and if you sense he may be about to make a big break for it, get ready to call him back.

Let that morning madness go first, then play with your dog in a way that you can incorporate training, hide and seek is great for recall, it gets pretty boring for your dog if he can see you all the time.

 

My nephews dog lab was exactly the same at that age, so don't worry, it's now 14 months old and has done the odd day of picking up very successfully.

 

Try to stick to one lesson per day, repeated in a series of 3 repetitions a time until you notice the very first bit of body language or eye expression that indicates boredom or confusion and then stop immediately and go back to one task that you know your dog can complete correctly so that you can reward him and finish positively.

 

Always try your best to give positive reinforcement; no reward or punishment for incorrect behavior, only positive reward for the correct behavior, this makes training easier for you, unless you understand complex reinforcement system training in canine behavior and learning.

Don't Rush as you will make things harder for you in the end.

Training animals is very very easy, it's just very repetitive and sometimes boring.

I train specialist dogs for a living, from cadaver to drugs, ( in past have trained gun, attack, protect,security and search) It starts with obedience training regardless of the dogs final training, the lesson plans are simple, it's just they can be so mundane to follow for humans!!

 

Enjoy spending time with your dog and it will work for you both.

 

(Just one final thought, why do you tell your dog 'No' when it encounters other dogs on leash? Dogs are far more sociable animals than we are, most humans are not that warm and sociable when meeting other strange humans, dogs are not like that at all, by stopping a natural behavior with a ,no, command you are subtley modifying your dogs behavior towards protection of you. How? Because if your dog ignores your ,no, command I bet any money you reinforce it with a pull back on his lead, now whenever another dog and human approaches , and your dog is out in the front on its lead, and you tell it ,no, and pull it back, it will start to think that there is something ahead that you are afraid of, so the dog will start to do its best to protect you... Before you know it you have a dog that starts showing dog to dog aggression and barks at oncoming dogs and their owners.

Just a thought for you to hold on to....)

 

.

 

That last paragraph is a cracker, many of us must have done a double take on the "no" bit and left it be but I think that's bang on although it never stuck me that way at the time

[follyfoot]

Hi again, took my pup out again and we are following all your advice which I have taken on board. Taking Max back a bit and reinforcing his recall and keeping him on his lead when in distraction situations and will post back in a few weeks with our progress.

 

Wishing you all a merry xmas and happy new year.

 

Follyfoot

Edited December 13, 2013 by follyfoot

[markhf]

Have a good festive holiday and keep up the training, little and often as a play game. Also research from the military working dog programmed has shown that skills retention in canine is averaged at 26 days before repetitive refresher training is required to sharpen them up again, so don't be afraid of taking a break from training specifics if you feel your dog is losing interest, as always though basic obedience needs to daily until your dog understands how the game works, once this happens you can let him be a little more 'lead' as the saying goes.