DESMOND TUTU

[four-wheel-drive]

There are not many people in this world that I regard as good people I remember years ago when Mandela was released from prison I thought that Desmond Tutu was just like the rest out for what he could get but I have been proved wrong over the years and it makes me sad to see that the S/A government have not bothered to invite him to the funeral.

 

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2013/12/14/desmond-tutu-mandela-funeral/4022753/

[88b]

It said on the news earlier it was all a big mistake or misunderstanding, of course it was.

Edited December 14, 2013 by 88b

[aris]

Mr Tutu has too much integrity for the ANC. He speaks too many inconvenient truths for their liking.

[four-wheel-drive]

I see he was at the funereal today after all but not the other do yesterday watching some of it on TV one thing that never changes is almost all of the top people are so fat but most of the others are thin I wonder why that should be.

[Oops Missed Again]

I see he was at the funereal today after all but not the other do yesterday watching some of it on TV one thing that never changes is almost all of the top people are so fat but most of the others are thin I wonder why that should be.

Yes, I've never worked that one out.

Also how terrorists can become "gods" and visa versa. We humans are a strange lot!!!!!

[aris]

I see he was at the funereal today after all but not the other do yesterday watching some of it on TV one thing that never changes is almost all of the top people are so fat but most of the others are thin I wonder why that should be.

AIDS - no joke.

[Gimlet]

Looking at Southern Africa's ruling classes on display, a cynic might begin to understand why giving blacks the vote was resisted for so long in SA and Rhodesia. What a dismal let down.

[timmytree]

Looking at the way the mourners were jigging and dancing I reckon they must have had "The Locomotion" for the funeral march.

[four-wheel-drive]

Looking at the way the mourners were jigging and dancing I reckon they must have had "The Locomotion" for the funeral march.

This is something that has always puzzeld me if people believe in god and an after life looking at it logically when a person dies they go on to a much better place we may be sad at loosing them but should we not be happy and have party's to celebrate it not sing sad songs and go around crying as most people seem to do.

[overandunder2012]

Looking at Southern Africa's ruling classes on display, a cynic might begin to understand why giving blacks the vote was resisted for so long in SA and Rhodesia. What a dismal let down.

it was resisted because it was ruled by a bunch of racist whites it was a horrid place then probably is still, personally iv watched none of this mandela stuff never gave a toss about sa probably never will

 

 

Edited December 16, 2013 by overandunder2012

[Hamster]

Looking at Southern Africa's ruling classes on display, a cynic might begin to understand why giving blacks the vote was resisted for so long in SA and Rhodesia. What a dismal let down.

 

People seem to have some very divided opinions on the whole thing but I can't decipher what you meant by the above ?! How can even a cynic draw valid conclusions from merely looking at so called ruling classes on display ? What do non black ruling classes look like in similar circumstances ?

[four-wheel-drive]

 

People seem to have some very divided opinions on the whole thing but I can't decipher what you meant by the above ?! How can even a cynic draw valid conclusions from merely looking at so called ruling classes on display ? What do non black ruling classes look like in similar circumstances ?

I think what he is implying is for the most part they are a bit rotund and give the impression that they have there hands in the pot and care little about the ordinary people as long as they are doing very nicely thank you whereas our politicians tend to very in size some fat some thin.

 

The point is most of these countries have lots of things going for them like oil gold and lots of good farm land etc etc all of which if managed properly could do much to improve the life of the people who live there but instead most of the money goes in to the Swiss bank accounts of the fat people that we are talking about.

Edited December 16, 2013 by four-wheel-drive

[Hamster]

I think what he is implying is for the most part they are a bit rotund and give the impression that they have there hands in the pot and care little about the ordinary people as long as they are doing very nicely thank you whereas our politicians tend to very in size some fat some thin.

 

The point is most of these countries have lots of things going for them like oil gold and lots of good farm land etc etc all of which if managed properly could do much to improve the life of the people who live there but instead most of the money goes in to the Swiss bank accounts of the fat people that we are talking about.

 

Hmm, yes I suppose I kind of get that.............generously proportioned physiques pointing to corruption and being well fed, but then races tend to have distinct tendencies don't they. The Chinese amongst other far east nations for instance have always been rather small and thin in stature, do we take that as a sign of incorruptibility ?

 

People keep going on and on about Africa being a special case of needless poverty but I'm not sure I agree, look at India, Latin America, parts of the Middle East, America itself is not immune and seems unable / reluctant to address it meaning it can't be all that easy, then of course there is Europe; if our business model is so good how come Greece is on it's knees as are other countries if we're being honest. It's just that I don't hear people criticise the Greek for example with quite the same slant if you know what I mean ?!

[Gimlet]

 

People seem to have some very divided opinions on the whole thing but I can't decipher what you meant by the above ?! How can even a cynic draw valid conclusions from merely looking at so called ruling classes on display ? What do non black ruling classes look like in similar circumstances ?

 

South Africa, in fact almost all of Africa, is riddled with tribalism and corruption and everyone knows it, especially South Africans, which is why we saw the remarkably ironic spectacle of Jacob Zuma being booed by an overwehlmingly black audience at the formal commemoration of a man who fought for black freedom. Those who publicly eulogised Mandela as a brother and an inspiration simultaneously welcomed to the proceedings Robert Mugabe, a man who embodies the antithesis of everything Mandela came to represent.

I'm not suggesting for one minute our white politicians are any better. Our emasculated Westminster talking shop is arguably no less partisan and self-serving or any more representaive, and the ruling idealogues of the EU are very much worse.

Edited December 16, 2013 by Gimlet

[four-wheel-drive]

 

Hmm, yes I suppose I kind of get that.............generously proportioned physiques pointing to corruption and being well fed, but then races tend to have distinct tendencies don't they. The Chinese amongst other far east nations for instance have always been rather small and thin in stature, do we take that as a sign of incorruptibility ?

 

People keep going on and on about Africa being a special case of needless poverty but I'm not sure I agree, look at India, Latin America, parts of the Middle East, America itself is not immune and seems unable / reluctant to address it meaning it can't be all that easy, then of course there is Europe; if our business model is so good how come Greece is on it's knees as are other countries if we're being honest. It's just that I don't hear people criticise the Greek for example with quite the same slant if you know what I mean ?!

The problem with the Greeks is they want all of the pensions and government spending but they do not seem to understand that unlike the rest of europe it only works if the people pay there taxes.

[aris]

The problem with the Greeks is they want all of the pensions and government spending but they do not seem to understand that unlike the rest of europe it only works if the people pay there taxes.

They know it - they just all think someone else pays the taxes.

[four-wheel-drive]

 

South Africa, in fact almost all of Africa, is riddled with tribalism and corruption and everyone knows it, especially South Africans, which is why we saw the remarkably ironic spectacle of Jacob Zuma being booed by an overwehlmingly black audience at the formal commemoration of a man who fought for black freedom. Those who publicly eulogised Mandela as a brother and an inspiration simultaneously welcomed to the proceedings Robert Mugabe, a man who embodies the antithesis of everything Mandela came to represent.

I'm not suggesting for one minute our white politicians are any better. Our emasculated Westminster talking shop is arguably no less partisan and self-serving or any more representaive, and the ruling idealogues of the EU are very much worse.

I think for the most part our politicians try there best and are not corrupt the real problem lies with the banks they are much to big and beyond control of government.

[Gimlet]

I think for the most part our politicians try there best and are not corrupt the real problem lies with the banks they are much to big and beyond control of government.

 

I agree most ordinary back-benchers are there to do the job of representing their constituents but the business of government itself and the executive is another matter. Most of our governing is done by an unelected EU Commission which acts like Whitehall, the Lords and an all powerful executive rolled into one. Our Government is a district council of the EU, Mr Cameron is the town clerk. Government has become an exercise in keeping a party in power not serving the needs of the country or delivering manifesto pledges because that is no longer its remit. Its a privileges club. We even call it the Westminster Village without irony. Its a parallel universe. And now they're voting on awarding themselves an astonishing 11% pay rise for pretending to do a job which is in fact being done by an overseas quango. South African politics, for all its incompetence and immaturity, hasn't descended to that yet.

 

And no, the banks are not the problem. Banking was adequately regulated until Gordon Brown hobbled the Bank of England, giving final oversite to the treasury (himself) which he exploited to increase the money supply be encouraging cheap debt, happy to create fictitious tax receipts and the illusion of prosperity while behind the scenes he drove a ruinous expansion of the State.

Politicians are not inherently more virtuous or more competent than private citizens or private business. They do not possess a superior moral outlook and they are not qualified to spend our money more wisely than we can ourselves. The problem is that they think they are. Their job is to create the conditions for individuals and businesses to flourish, not to act as custodians and supervisors.

Edited December 17, 2013 by Gimlet

[Raja Clavata]

 

South Africa, in fact almost all of Africa, is riddled with tribalism and corruption and everyone knows it, especially South Africans, which is why we saw the remarkably ironic spectacle of Jacob Zuma being booed by an overwehlmingly black audience at the formal commemoration of a man who fought for black freedom. Those who publicly eulogised Mandela as a brother and an inspiration simultaneously welcomed to the proceedings Robert Mugabe, a man who embodies the antithesis of everything Mandela came to represent.

I'm not suggesting for one minute our white politicians are any better. Our emasculated Westminster talking shop is arguably no less partisan and self-serving or any more representaive, and the ruling idealogues of the EU are very much worse.

+1

 

Met Archbishop Tutu in Oxford and attended a formal dinner with him as special guest at my College. A truly remarkable human being.

[old rooster]

One of the biggest problems some fail to grasp is that not all parts of the world work well under the type of democratic government we've become accustomed to here.

 

Tribalism is still a strong feature of African life, like it or not. They can't use the excuse that the dreadful whiteys are suppressing them now to explain why there is so much poverty in a country with so much in the way of untapped natural resources.

 

The hard truth is that it is mismanaged and that the basic work ethic is vastly different to that which most industrialised European countries have.

 

That the likes of a murdering megalomaniac despot like Mugabe is welcomed has to say a lot surely?

[four-wheel-drive]

One of the biggest problems some fail to grasp is that not all parts of the world work well under the type of democratic government we've become accustomed to here.

 

Tribalism is still a strong feature of African life, like it or not. They can't use the excuse that the dreadful whiteys are suppressing them now to explain why there is so much poverty in a country with so much in the way of untapped natural resources.

 

The hard truth is that it is mismanaged and that the basic work ethic is vastly different to that which most industrialised European countries have.

 

That the likes of a murdering megalomaniac despot like Mugabe is welcomed has to say a lot surely?

I must say that I have thought that perhaps things would work out better in parts of the world that tribalism is strong if it could be possible to do away the countries that for the most part europeans made and make new countries on a tribal basis.

[Gimlet]

I must say that I have thought that perhaps things would work out better in parts of the world that tribalism is strong if it could be possible to do away the countries that for the most part europeans made and make new countries on a tribal basis.

 

Its true, Europeans, especially Britain have done terrible damage in the world where they've run rough-shod over tribal loyalties and forced the creation of artificial nations. Particularly in the middle east, where the allies carved up the region with a pen and a ruler ofter the fall of the Ottoman Empire at the end of WW1. Iraq was one of ours - that went well didn't it? You can't build nations on the basis of bureaucratic convenience (EU architects please take note). Human beings don't work like that. You create more problems than you solve. We still keep doing it though with a sort of well-intentioned imperialism. Britain, more than any other country in the world ought to know better.

I'm sure there's something to be said for turning your back and sticking your fingers in your ears and not interferring; but tribal hostilities and loyalties disentangling themselves with oil wealth and modern weapons thrown in is not a pleasant process.

I'm sure in Africa we could do more by doing less, engaging with the good and refusing to deal with the bad but otherwise leaving them to get on with it. Unfortunately that only works if everyone follows the same approach and if anyone's told the Chinese they haven't been listening and I doubt they'll start listening any time soon.

[four-wheel-drive]

This makes me think about this country where does this leave us it seems to me that our tribe would have to be northern European which would imply white people but it would seem that most of the countries in Europe are being transformed by immigration from all over the world.

 

I must admit that I find it hard to get my head around it when they say that a British person has been killed in say India and I expect to see a white chap but when they show a picture of him he is for all the world Chinese I do not now what this says about me or about the way that my country is changing but there it is.

[overandunder2012]

This makes me think about this country where does this leave us it seems to me that our tribe would have to be northern European which would imply white people but it would seem that most of the countries in Europe are being transformed by immigration from all over the world.

 

I must admit that I find it hard to get my head around it when they say that a British person has been killed in say India and I expect to see a white chap but when they show a picture of him he is for all the world Chinese I do not now what this says about me or about the way that my country is changing but there it is.

it was for told by the prophets wailers

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BWw_gP0vDfE

Edited December 18, 2013 by overandunder2012

[old rooster]

Always find it surprising that when this sort of topic arises there is rarely any mention of the American Indians. What the Europeans did to them must surely rate as the biggest act of genocide in human history as far as eradicating complete tribes is concerned.

 

One wonders how african countries which were ruled by tribal cultures would have developed without European intervention. Anybody who thinks that the tribes enjoyed a peaceful coexistence needs to bone up on their history a bit methinks! The inter tribal fighting was very bloody and once the slavery arrived one tribe would round up and sell members of other tribes to the slavers.

 

All too easy to see it through rose tinted spectacles innit.

 

When you boil it down pretty much the while human race are nasty, avaricious creatures who do very little to benefit the environment they inhabit!