Zetter Posted June 17, 2014 Author Report Share Posted June 17, 2014 (edited) Cheers Dekers always a danger of reading in internet land Edited June 17, 2014 by Zetter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brett1985 Posted June 17, 2014 Report Share Posted June 17, 2014 1/2 that but it might not be the gun I kind of figured that may be the case, half the problem i found is that at that range with the scope we are using, the dot in the middle of the cross hair was covering the whole target.... may well try at with a higher mag scope and see if that helps. sad thing is, i spent the rest of the morning using a .223 remington, .308 cz and a .300 winmag tac 300 and was getting nigh on same hole groups with those... funnily enough, all fitted with 6-20x leupolds. glad to know it was more me than the gun... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dekers Posted June 17, 2014 Report Share Posted June 17, 2014 (edited) The 455 has an interchangeable barrel, as do some other rifles, the quad has simply taken this design feature to a slightly more user friendly stage. CZ are not majoring on the changeable barrel option on the 455, it just happens you can! Whilst some do indeed use, and find a quad type with multi barrels useful, in my experience the majority do not, and use rifles predominantly as a single calibre item. Personally I have no interest in changing barrels, I simply grab whatever gun/guns I want and go to work! ATB! Edited June 17, 2014 by Dekers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshwarrior Posted June 17, 2014 Report Share Posted June 17, 2014 The 455 has an interchangeable barrel, as do some other rifles, the quad has simply taken this design feature to a slightly more user friendly stage. CZ are not majoring on the changeable barrel option on the 455, it just happens you can! Whilst some do indeed use, and find a quad type with multi barrels useful, in my experience the majority do not, and use rifles predominantly as a single calibre item. Personally I have no interest in changing barrels, I simply grab whatever gun/guns I want and go to work! ATB! I agree with Deker the only exception is with CF where I can see the need and I'm process of making my own but I will not want to change it mid session it will be a this week we are looking for Boar and Deer 308 next week back to fox and deer 243. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted June 17, 2014 Report Share Posted June 17, 2014 I know this has been done to death a bit but a concern I have from a lot of research on line is ricochet potential from the .22LR. The ground I shoot over is fairly hard in the summer and its only a 50acre plot. I know to shoot into good backstops with the field I am mainly shooting in having a large rise to shoot into as a backstop. But I am a bit concerned that a ricochet can go in unexpected directions. Am I being a bit too paraniod? Yes and the HMR is no safer, its been discussed recently but the suggestion was made just coz you don't here them don't mean they don't happen, I support that theory as I have seen it happen with hmr and deer calibre rifles Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted June 17, 2014 Report Share Posted June 17, 2014 I kind of figured that may be the case, half the problem i found is that at that range with the scope we are using, the dot in the middle of the cross hair was covering the whole target.... may well try at with a higher mag scope and see if that helps. sad thing is, i spent the rest of the morning using a .223 remington, .308 cz and a .300 winmag tac 300 and was getting nigh on same hole groups with those... funnily enough, all fitted with 6-20x leupolds. glad to know it was more me than the gun... scope wont help much, you just need the correct sight picture for it to be no issue and set the group to impact away from the aim point Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted June 17, 2014 Report Share Posted June 17, 2014 I agree with Deker the only exception is with CF where I can see the need and I'm process of making my own but I will not want to change it mid session it will be a this week we are looking for Boar and Deer 308 next week back to fox and deer 243. Now I see some point to this. .308 bolt face gives a great many options, ideal for traveling. 55 grn fast fragmenting 6mm bullets to 200 grn plus 30 cal (or bigger) in the same medium action. That's a stack different from a .17 / .22 etc. that has pretty much the same use Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dekers Posted June 17, 2014 Report Share Posted June 17, 2014 Yes and the HMR is no safer, its been discussed recently but the suggestion was made just coz you don't here them don't mean they don't happen, I support that theory as I have seen it happen with hmr and deer calibre rifles From a potential ricochet point of view the HMR most certainly is safer. Any calibre can ricochet, the nature of the ammo/calibre/shape/speed etc tend to push the .22lr higher up the scale of likelihood, that's all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zetter Posted June 17, 2014 Author Report Share Posted June 17, 2014 So would the general consensus be to start with .22lr and then see how I progress? I have the slots for both .22lr and .17hmr and intend to get both in time but cant afford both at the moment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshwarrior Posted June 17, 2014 Report Share Posted June 17, 2014 I always have a 22 the HMRs come and go, I use my 22 more than anything else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted June 17, 2014 Report Share Posted June 17, 2014 From a potential ricochet point of view the HMR most certainly is safer. Any calibre can ricochet, the nature of the ammo/calibre/shape/speed etc tend to push the .22lr higher up the scale of likelihood, that's all. I cannot agree to that anymore, its twice the energy and will ricochet were the .22 wont and vice versa as I have seen but both need to be shot the same in the same situations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted June 17, 2014 Report Share Posted June 17, 2014 So would the general consensus be to start with .22lr and then see how I progress? I have the slots for both .22lr and .17hmr and intend to get both in time but cant afford both at the moment. I always have a 22 the HMRs come and go, I use my 22 more than anything else. I wont have another HMR myself, pointless gun against a small centrefire at one end or over the .22 at the other. Consider Zetter you might change that slot in time, .22 Hornet, .17 hornet, fireball or even a .222 upwards. Best thing Firearms ever did for me is start to put a cap on the rifles I had listed for vermin, though I didn't think that at the time Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dekers Posted June 18, 2014 Report Share Posted June 18, 2014 I cannot agree to that anymore, its twice the energy and will ricochet were the .22 wont and vice versa as I have seen but both need to be shot the same in the same situations. I really don't care if you "cannot agree to that anymore", you hardly seem in a position to make a judgement as you apparently haven't used them in the same conditions, and are very anti the HMR anyway. So, the Hornet is twice the power of the HMR, and the HMR is twice the power of the .22lr, why does that make them just as likely to ricochet as a .22lr? How far up the scale do you want to go? Any calibre can and does ricochet, certain bullet designs/speeds/etc make that a little more likely than others, and .22lr still remains at the top of the list of most likely! as #34 "...........the nature of the ammo/calibre/shape/speed etc tend to push the .22lr higher up the scale of likelihood" ((to ricochet))..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dadioles Posted June 18, 2014 Report Share Posted June 18, 2014 I would certainly have two guns although paradoxically, i have very little time for 17HMR personally as i just find it too inconsistent and dont want one. I was out rabbiting last night in Wales and my host had brought a 455 in 22WMR and a 17 HMR SAVAGE, both shot OK but i was kinda glad he also felt somewhat indifferent about the HMR. Its pretty bad when you open a box of brand new 1000 round case of ammo to find supposedly red tipped Hornady V-max bullets with every shade of colour under the sun, doesent exactly shout out "batch consistency" and reminds me the best ammo for them was the first ammo produced when they were first launched a decade back. I really wouldnt worry about the inherrent ability of the gun itself when all you can feed it is questionable at best, missfiring and dangerous at worst. I think it is fair to say that Hornady 17gr v-max for the HMR is some of the most reliable and consistent rimfire ammunition available. Compared to the .22lr the consistency of hmr ammunition is remarkable. Variations in the shade of red tip colour are purely cosmetic and of no consequence. Bob Palmer at Hornady told me back in 2011.... "The red color of the tip can vary a little because of the color die in the machine. It can vary a little on the mix. You also see some bullets that are brown or darker. That is caused by the injection mold being too hot. I think we make all of the tipped 17 cal bullets for the HMR" You need to put things into perspective. Huge numbers of cheap mass produced hmr rounds are fired every day. There are a few failures. The failure may be the result of poor (damp) storage, faulty ammunition, shooter error or a gun problem. The percentage failure rate is tiny. Some of you like the HMR and some don't. It fills a niche and is an excellent calibre for certain tasks so lets get real here and stop expecting free miracles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted June 18, 2014 Report Share Posted June 18, 2014 I think anyone who considers a round less likely to ricochet is starting to tread on dangerous ground. Depend what it hits and at what speed angle, still even when you think its all sorted you can fire ten at a target / backdrop and only 1 might ricochet. (yes, before anyone says it I admit you can say 50bmg or .416 etc needs more management than a .222 rem but that's far from the comparison we are speaking of here) Treat them all the same I say, at the end of the day the HMR goes a little too slow at the muzzle and is slower still at 100 + its certainly not like sending a light varmint bullet at close on or over 4000fps from say a 22-250 / .243 or .17 rem etc. Still no quarter or if you like extra allowance should be given these on shot assessment. I bring the small centrefires into it because they are more effective not because they are any safer, the fact the hmr produces double the energy of a .22 sub just 100% mitigates any claim to the slightly reduced ricochet factor it might occasionally hold through increased speed (though pedestrian by CF stds and a 50% lighter bullet weight) under certain very highly specific situations its time the shooting community put to bed all this HMR is safer rubbish. I didn't honestly post it for your good Deckers so I don't really care, Its about those guys who are new to this and suck up this "get a HMR its safer" stuff. Like I say if you believe it safer you will push any gains it might possibly just occasionally give too far, I had two particulary rangey ricochets when I personally bought into the "wont bounce" theory (one I know travelled at least 300 yards in silence, other than the sonic crack which couldn't be detected were I was- yeah that changed my mind some!) Nobody can ***** their ground type so closely as to say one is safe another is not when we are talking HMR / LR, yes there are places were neither should be used. For me though I think its "either or neither", that is not to say one might not be more effective just neither can be said to hold enough between them on safety Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dekers Posted June 18, 2014 Report Share Posted June 18, 2014 I guess that is as close as you will get to an apology and an acceptance the .22lr is more prone to ricochet! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dekers Posted June 19, 2014 Report Share Posted June 19, 2014 I just think its funny how in a box of 50 rounds we got consistent group shift between the red ones, blotchy red one and brown ones, kind of suggestive isn't it. Whether the colour effects it or not is irrelevant, it suggests mixed quantities of projectiles from different production batches all dumped in a huge buckets and tipped into machines. the fact that the 50 rounds gave 3 distinctly different groups according to this colour with POI spread over 2 horizontal inches and 1 vertical inch really starts to add up at this point. I'm close to 10,000 rounds in my HMR, originally it favoured Hornady Red tips, but after about 1000-1500 rounds it seemed to shoot all the makes of 17g, as I used up the assortment of part boxes I bought when it was new. Since then it has lived on Reds but mainly Blue tips, simply on cost, and shoots them both the same. I did exhaustive tests when the Blue first turned up expecting these to be some inferior/second product, but I was not able to find any meaningful difference! Accuracy wise I have found no difference in any of the colour tips, or variations of colour of the same tips. Zero is checked regularly. I have found large (% wise) numbers of split cases after firing, none prior to firing (but in truth I don't spend much time looking before firing) and I have had no bullets stuck in the barrel. None of these split cases has caused any problem in POI from my experience. Checking Zero at Bisley a couple of weeks ago I let go 5, they were all in the V Bull at 100 yards and I had split cases in those 5, they made no difference. The HMR is a cracking calibre with some very useful ballistics, there are without doubt ammo/case issues which is far from good, and has caused issues for some, but I have never heard of a variation of tip colour causing problems. I too have had many red colour variations, verging on brown in some cases, I have not detected any variation in POI, let alone the massive movement you have experienced! ATB! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zetter Posted June 19, 2014 Author Report Share Posted June 19, 2014 Thanks all for the advice. After some pondering I have put a deposit down on a CZ452 .22lr 2nd hand at my local RFD pending my certificate hitting the mat. I have also added a second hand air arms FAC air running at 26ft/lb for when conditions are not suitable for .22lr and I have a couple of permission that are far more for airgun friendly than powder burner friendly. The .17HMR I will look at next year I think when finances permit. Atb Neil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted June 19, 2014 Report Share Posted June 19, 2014 I guess that is as close as you will get to an apology and an acceptance the .22lr is more prone to ricochet!No I shouldn't, I can create them almost to order shot into rushes- I have never know the ,22 do that. They are different but must be shot the same - neither might I intentionally shoot .22 into rushes not the hmr and neither might be used on baked hard clay or frozen ground. Like I say any who gives one allowance for error over the other has overstepped the boundrys Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dadioles Posted June 19, 2014 Report Share Posted June 19, 2014 I just think its funny how in a box of 50 rounds we got consistent group shift between the red ones, blotchy red one and brown ones, kind of suggestive isn't it. Whether the colour effects it or not is irrelevant, it suggests mixed quantities of projectiles from different production batches all dumped in a huge buckets and tipped into machines. the fact that the 50 rounds gave 3 distinctly different groups according to this colour with POI spread over 2 horizontal inches and 1 vertical inch really starts to add up at this point. The results you describe here, fister, are at complete variance to my own experience which is much the same as that described by Dekers (#45). When blue tips came out, they were sold cheaper than the normal red tips. I was told by Hornady that, basically, they had a lot of blue material to use up and dropped the price to shift it, no conspiracy theory, nothing sinister, it is all quite mundane really. The fact that different 'brands' of ammunition use different coloured tips is purely a marketing exercise, nothing technical. In response to another post about cracked hmr cases I said I would carry out a test and put the results up. I will try and get something posted today. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted June 19, 2014 Report Share Posted June 19, 2014 Thanks all for the advice. After some pondering I have put a deposit down on a CZ452 .22lr 2nd hand at my local RFD pending my certificate hitting the mat. I have also added a second hand air arms FAC air running at 26ft/lb for when conditions are not suitable for .22lr and I have a couple of permission that are far more for airgun friendly than powder burner friendly. The .17HMR I will look at next year I think when finances permit. Atb Neil Yeah, The FAC airgun is of use in this regards as the pellet deforms well being of lighter construction and the energy is massively lower a .22 sub is around twice the weight of a more solid contraction and carries 80-120 ft lb. If a ricochet carried half the energy of each and the same percentage of retained weight The numbers pretty much speak for themselves. Of most use is the FAC air of that range fired into the trees, its very doubtful you could even get the pellet to travel 400 yards in clean air Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dekers Posted June 19, 2014 Report Share Posted June 19, 2014 I think its perhaps just a highlight of the variety of component flow required for bulk ammo production. The HMR pretty much stands alone as small calibre yet relatively high performance rimfire round so therefore pushes accepted boundaries to the limits. As I say, I couldn't really care a fig, I can see good reason for them and use them occasionally myself but I just dont really like them. I actually chose to concentrate on the 22WMR on Tuesday night in a target rich environment for bunnies just for the fun of trying one out and the fact the Meopta scope atop it was nice to use compared to the more expensive but frankly very disappointing ***** on the 17 Savage. I run a WMR as well, cracking bit of kit, mine is excellent with the 30g V-Max, I can't help thinking if that was available when the HMR turned up the HMR would not have taken off in the way it has! If you compare ballistics of the 30g WMR V-Max and 17g HMR V-Max the difference is hardly a deal breaker! And you can put a 30g WMR into a fox or Canada goose pretty much wherever you like and it falls down! As I always say, my WMR gives me a feeling of confidence! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moorvale55 Posted June 19, 2014 Report Share Posted June 19, 2014 The 455 is nowhere near as accurate as a 452, they are ok but just dont really work. Get a 452. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dekers Posted June 20, 2014 Report Share Posted June 20, 2014 The 455 is nowhere near as accurate as a 452, they are ok but just dont really work. Get a 452. I have heard odd comments about the 455 but that is pretty damning, on what do you base that comment please? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brett1985 Posted June 20, 2014 Report Share Posted June 20, 2014 The 455 is nowhere near as accurate as a 452, they are ok but just dont really work. Get a 452. really? cant tell much difference with the .22lr. will find out with the hmr this weekend as its got new glass on it... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.