gunsmoke Posted January 7, 2015 Report Share Posted January 7, 2015 The new general licence allowing us to shoot pigeon and crows, may have a few mistakes. The way I read it: The licence only covers section 16(1)(i) and 16(5) of the wildlife and countryside act. And That the only methods that can be used are: hand held nets, cage traps or a semi auto weapon. I believe that there should be a 'k' to read 16(1)(k) to cover crop protection and that the methods should include firearm and shotgun. The Scottish general licence reads "Shooting with any firearm, including semi-automatic firearms, shotguns or air guns" If I am right, the new general licence will not cover you for shooting pigeons or crows. As it only refers to section 16(1)(i) and not 16(1)(k). I have written the Defra to get this changed. licence_to_kill_or_take_certain_wild_birds_to_prevent_serious_damage_or_disease__GL04_.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandalf Posted January 7, 2015 Report Share Posted January 7, 2015 It does appear that DEFRA/NE have screwed up again. Thanks for the headsup. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kes Posted January 7, 2015 Report Share Posted January 7, 2015 Thank you for paying attention - any of our shooting organisation picked this up - they should have. I havent read it myself but will do now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piebob Posted January 7, 2015 Report Share Posted January 7, 2015 Thank you for paying attention - any of our shooting organisation picked this up - they should have. I havent read it myself but will do now. Yes, I saw this on the BASC Facebook page either yesterday or the day before. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kes Posted January 7, 2015 Report Share Posted January 7, 2015 Yes, I saw this on the BASC Facebook page either yesterday or the day before. Thanks Bob - didnt know they had a facebook page too - I dont do that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimmyb79 Posted January 7, 2015 Report Share Posted January 7, 2015 I assume until its changed, semi auto shotguns are the only permitted gun then? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunsmoke Posted January 7, 2015 Author Report Share Posted January 7, 2015 (edited) I assume until its changed, semi auto shotguns are the only permitted gun then? That is the way I read it. BUT if the licence is not made under section 16 (1) (k) of the wildlife and countryside act the licence as they say it not worth the paper it is written on. Does anyone know how long its been like this? If you goole Scottish General Licence 02/2015 that is the way it should have been written. see below. Legislation: S16(1)(k) Wildlife & Countryside Act 1981 (as amended) Methods you can use 7. The methods of killing or taking which may be used under this General Licence, except where further restrictions apply, are: Pricking of eggs Oiling of eggs Destruction of eggs and nests A Larsen trap A Larsen mate trap A Larsen pod trap A multi-catch cage trap Shooting with any firearm, including semi-automatic firearms, shotguns or air guns In the case of Feral pigeon, Columba livia, shooting with the aid of any device for illuminating a target or any device for night shooting Targeted falconry By hand Edited January 7, 2015 by gunsmoke Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul T Posted January 7, 2015 Report Share Posted January 7, 2015 You can shoot certain birds for crop protection under the WCA1981 using a bog standard shotgun. The General Licence permits you to do the same, but additionally allows a semi auto weapon. This difference has always been there and hence you should be certain under what legislation you are shooting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billy. Posted January 7, 2015 Report Share Posted January 7, 2015 (edited) Let's forget I said what I just said Edited January 8, 2015 by Billy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunsmoke Posted January 8, 2015 Author Report Share Posted January 8, 2015 (edited) You can shoot certain birds for crop protection under the WCA1981 using a bog standard shotgun. The General Licence permits you to do the same, but additionally allows a semi auto weapon. This difference has always been there and hence you should be certain under what legislation you are shooting. I'm sorry Paul but the birds you where allowed to shoot at anytime under schedule 2 part 2 of the Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981, which included pigeons and crows was removed by an amendment and so we could still shoot them the general licence was brought in. This is the amendment to the act: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1992/3010/article/2/made Edited January 8, 2015 by gunsmoke Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul T Posted January 8, 2015 Report Share Posted January 8, 2015 I agree Gunsmoke, but the exemptions (listed as Section 4) to ss1 don't refer to Schedule II Part 2 birds anymore. It just says birds NOT listed in Schedule 1... Notwithstanding anything in the provisions of section 1 or any order made under section 3, an authorised person shall not be guilty of an offence by reason of the killing or injuring of any wild bird, other than a bird included in Schedule 1, if he shows that his action was necessary for the purpose of— (a)preserving public health or public or air safety; (b)preventing the spread of disease; or ©preventing serious damage to livestock, foodstuffs for livestock, crops, vegetables, fruit, growing timber, [F21, fisheries or inland waters]. It's hellish confusing, granted Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunsmoke Posted January 8, 2015 Author Report Share Posted January 8, 2015 Dear Mr Summerell Thank you for your email. Many thanks for letting us know about these issues. We are in the process of editing relevant licences to ensure that they refer to the correct legislation and that they clarify what methods are allowed to be used. The licences specifically refer to methods usually prohibited under the Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981 (as amended), including semi-automatic weapons, but they also allow use of other non-prohibited methods. There has been no change to the legislation or methods allowed under GL04, GL05 or GL06 since last year’s licences and we apologise for any confusion caused. We will let you know as soon as the re-issued licences are available on our website. Many thanks, Tim Medlicott Tim Medlicott - Support Adviser Wildlife Licensing Team Standards & Guidance – Sustainable Development Natural England, 1st Floor, Temple Quay House, 2 The Square, Bristol BS1 6EB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimmyb79 Posted January 8, 2015 Report Share Posted January 8, 2015 Dear Mr Summerell Thank you for your email. Many thanks for letting us know about these issues. We are in the process of editing relevant licences to ensure that they refer to the correct legislation and that they clarify what methods are allowed to be used. The licences specifically refer to methods usually prohibited under the Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981 (as amended), including semi-automatic weapons, but they also allow use of other non-prohibited methods. There has been no change to the legislation or methods allowed under GL04, GL05 or GL06 since last year’s licences and we apologise for any confusion caused. We will let you know as soon as the re-issued licences are available on our website. Many thanks, Tim Medlicott Tim Medlicott - Support Adviser Wildlife Licensing Team Standards & Guidance – Sustainable Development Natural England, 1st Floor, Temple Quay House, 2 The Square, Bristol BS1 6EB This is the same advice I received from the BASC Woodpigeon Team earlier today. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul T Posted January 8, 2015 Report Share Posted January 8, 2015 To add further to the confusion, the definition of semi-autos weapons different between the GL and the WCA... WCA ss27 (Interpretation of Part 1 (E+W)) defines as follows... "automatic weapon" and "semi-automatic weapon" do not include any weapon the magazine of which is incapable of holding more than two rounds; So hence a '3 shot' with 2 in the mag and 1 up the spout can be used for wildfowl (outside the closed season obviously) under the auspices of the WCA, as a 3 shot semi-auto is not actually a "semi auto" in this case. I was informed the extra shot is a loophole that was never intended and the number of shots should have been limited to 2 in total. The General Licence specifically refers to an FAC shotgun (for example) as it states: “Semi-automatic weapon” means any weapon which is not prohibited by section 5 of the Firearms Act 1968 (as amended) and which has a magazine capable of holding more than two rounds of ammunition, where the depression of the trigger discharges a single shot and reloads the next, each subsequent shot requiring a further depression of the trigger." As per my original post on this and confirmed to me by BASC last year: you cannot control corvids and woodpigeons under the WCA using an FAC (semi-auto) shotgun, but you can with a bog standard 2 or 3 shot one (even if it is actually of a semi-auto operation). The General Licence permits you to use an FAC semi which is specifically NOT permitted by the WCA. Hence my original post to say you need to be certain about which legislation you are shooting under and with what. I think we can all agree the legislation needs a damn good tidy up - it took me a while to get my head round it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HW682 Posted January 8, 2015 Report Share Posted January 8, 2015 I agree Gunsmoke, but the exemptions (listed as Section 4) to ss1 don't refer to Schedule II Part 2 birds anymore. It just says birds NOT listed in Schedule 1... Notwithstanding anything in the provisions of section 1 or any order made under section 3, an authorised person shall not be guilty of an offence by reason of the killing or injuring of any wild bird, other than a bird included in Schedule 1, if he shows that his action was necessary for the purpose of— (a)preserving public health or public or air safety; ( B)preventing the spread of disease; or ©preventing serious damage to livestock, foodstuffs for livestock, crops, vegetables, fruit, growing timber, [F21, fisheries or inland waters]. It's hellish confusing, granted It is also important to read the next few lines.... (4)An authorised person shall not be regarded as showing that any action of his was necessary for a purpose mentioned in subsection (3)© unless he shows that as regards that purpose, there was no other satisfactory solution. (5)An authorised person shall not be entitled to rely on the defence provided by subsection (3)© as respects any action taken at any time for any purpose mentioned in that paragraph if it had become apparent, before that time, that that action would prove necessary for that purpose and either— (a )a licence under section 16 authorising that action had not been applied for by him as soon as reasonably practicable after that fact had become apparent; or ( b )an application by him for such a licence had been determined. (6)An authorised person shall not be entitled to rely on the defence provided by subsection (3)© as respects any action taken at any time unless he notified the agriculture Minister as soon as reasonably practicable after that time that he had taken the action. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunsmoke Posted January 9, 2015 Author Report Share Posted January 9, 2015 Just got this from NE, new general licence is online, However its the old 2014 licence. All they have done is remove the update of the 1st Jan. Its beginning to look like a 'Yes Minister' Sketch. From: Wildlife Consultation (NE) [mailto:Wildlife.Consultation@naturalengland.org.uk] Sent: 09 January 2015 10:34To: Moberly, Rebecca (NE)Subject: General and Class Licences 2015 I am emailing to let you know that the General and Class Licences for 2015 are now available on our website: https://www.gov.uk/wildlife-licences We have made some minor changes to a few licences from the draft versions released in December, including correction of typographical errors and clarification of the terms and conditions of General Licences GL04, GL05 and GL06, and Class Licences CL03 and CL12 (all available here: https://www.gov.uk/government/collections/bird-licences) in response to customer feedback. We would be grateful if you could let yourstaff/members/contacts (as appropriate) know that these have now been updated. Thank you. Please contact me in the first instance if you have any questions about the re-issuedlicences. Please note that I work Tuesday - Thursday. If you have any queries more generally about Natural England, licensing and wildlife management, please contact Natural England Enquiries Team: Email:enquiries@naturalengland.org.uk Telephone 0300 060 3900. Rebecca MoberlySenior Adviser Sustainable Development Team Natural EnglandGuildbourne House, Chatsworth Road Worthing BN11 1LD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunsmoke Posted January 9, 2015 Author Report Share Posted January 9, 2015 I am in a Yes Minister sketch: New email for NE Apologies, this email was sent in error. The amended licences (GL04, GL05, GL06, CL03, CL12) will be available on our website later today and we will let you know when these are uploaded. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunsmoke Posted January 9, 2015 Author Report Share Posted January 9, 2015 New general licence back online. https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/wild-birds-licence-to-take-or-kill-to-prevent-damage-or-disease Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunsmoke Posted January 11, 2015 Author Report Share Posted January 11, 2015 I agree Gunsmoke, but the exemptions (listed as Section 4) to ss1 don't refer to Schedule II Part 2 birds anymore. It just says birds NOT listed in Schedule 1... Notwithstanding anything in the provisions of section 1 or any order made under section 3, an authorised person shall not be guilty of an offence by reason of the killing or injuring of any wild bird, other than a bird included in Schedule 1, if he shows that his action was necessary for the purpose of— (a)preserving public health or public or air safety; ( B)preventing the spread of disease; or ©preventing serious damage to livestock, foodstuffs for livestock, crops, vegetables, fruit, growing timber, [F21, fisheries or inland waters]. It's hellish confusing, granted This section of the Act only covers killing the bird in does not cover the methods that can be used. So the way I read now is we have the right to kill the pigeon or crow but only with the methods allowed on the general licence and that in a semi automatic weapon [a shotgun or firearm with more than 2 rounds in the magazine]. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul T Posted January 12, 2015 Report Share Posted January 12, 2015 This section of the Act only covers killing the bird in does not cover the methods that can be used. So the way I read now is we have the right to kill the pigeon or crow but only with the methods allowed on the general licence and that in a semi automatic weapon [a shotgun or firearm with more than 2 rounds in the magazine]. SS5 tells you what you CAN'T use - i.e. crossbow, semi-autoweapon (which has more than 2 in the mag under the WCA, remember?) etc. So by default you CAN use an O/U or a SxS etc. The Act has been written this way for years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunsmoke Posted January 13, 2015 Author Report Share Posted January 13, 2015 Pigeon and crow shooting Ignorance is not defence in law, so you have to understand the law to be able to shoot pigeon or crows. We are told we are able to shoot pigeons and crows under the general licence. This is the way I understand the new general licence to kill pigeons and Crows ect. In 1985 the EC Birds Directive made the UK Government amend the Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981, the birds that could be killed at anytime pigeons and crows ect, under Schedule 2 Part 2 of the Act where removed by the amendment. To allow us to still carry out pest control and crop protection, the government brought in the General Licence, it is renewed on the 1st of January each year. One bright-eyed shooter James Shaw, took a look at the new licence and asked a very simple question, on the a Facebook forum page, “anyone seen this and what it means can only use semi autos?? I spotted that the licence was made under the wrong section of the Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981 (as amended) the GL04 licence was wrongly made under section 16(1)(i) it should have been 16(1)(k). Later in 2004 the exception that allowed you to kill and take birds listed in Schedule 2 part 2, pigeons and crows, where repealed in the Scotland part of the Act,under Section 2(2). It was not repealed in the section referring to England and Wales. 2Exceptions to s. 1.(2) (a)the killing or taking of a bird included in Part II of Schedule 2, or the injuring of such a bird in the course of an attempt to kill it; However the birds listed in Part II of Schedule 2 which where pigeon and crow ect, have been removed. So the exception does not apply. To shoot pigeons and crows, shooters in England and Wales are relying on the general licence and Section 4 (3) of the Act. 4(3)Notwithstanding anything in the provisions of section 1 or any order made under section 3, an authorised person shall not be guilty of an offence by reason of the killing or injuring of any wild bird, other than a bird included in Schedule 1, if he shows that his action was necessary for the purpose of— (a)preserving public health or public or air safety; (b)preventing the spread of disease; or ©preventing serious damage to livestock, foodstuffs for livestock, crops, vegetables, fruit, growing timber, [F21, fisheries or inland waters]. F21 - Words in s. 4(3)© substituted (30.11.1995) by S.I. 1995/2825, reg. 2(1) Although section 4(3) allows us to kill pigeons and crows ect, it does not cover the methods that can be used. This is the Law of the Land and it has to be right. If the legislation is not correct it becomes invalid, not worth the paper it is written on. However the methods that can be used did not change under the new licence put up on the Natural England web site on the 9th January, they are still the same as the old one. Where does that leave us, if you can only use the methods allowed on the licence? Section 16 Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981 as mended (5A) A licence under subsection (1) which authorises any action in respect of wild birds— (a)shall specify the species of wild birds in respect of which, the circumstances in which, and the conditions subject to which, the action may be taken; (b)shall specify the methods, means or arrangements which are authorised or required for the taking of the action; and According to the new licence it does not allow the use of a normal shotgun, firearm or an air gun. The Scottish general licence has the shooting methods that can be used as, with any firearm, including semi-automatic firearms, shotguns and air guns. The conditions for issuing the licence under the Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981 (as amended), clearly states that the methods that can be used should be specified on the licence under Section 16 ‘Power to grant licences’ (5A) (b) where do we stand if the methods are not defined correctly? The new general licence is made under the correct section of the Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981 (as amended) section 16(1)(k) but the methods that can be used have not changed, it does not allow a normal shotgun, firearm or air gun. If you rely on the general licence to shoot pigeon and crows the implication of this licence being so badly worded mains that pigeon and crows can only be killed by shooting with a semi automatic firearm and we must work to the term and condition of the licence. That is was the idea of scaring the birds off first comes from [Licence Conditions 1.]. The use of a normal shotgun, firearm or air gun has been outlawed by default. The question now is do you need the general licence to shoot pigeons and crows? If the exception in the wildlife and Countryside Act 1981 as amended, allows you to shoot pigeons and crows why do you need the general licence? 4(3)Notwithstanding anything in the provisions of section 1 or any order made under section 3, an authorised person shall not be guilty of an offence by reason of the killing or injuring of any wild bird, other than a bird included in Schedule 1, if he shows that his action was necessary for the purpose of— ©preventing serious damage to livestock, foodstuffs for livestock, crops, vegetables, fruit, growing timber, [F21, fisheries or inland waters]. This section of the Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981 as amended, allow you to shoot pigeon and crows, they are not on Schedule 1 of the Act. At the time this was written we did not have the general licence, is was belt and braces exception along with the exception that no long apply section 2 (2)(a). 2Exceptions to s. 1. (2) (a)the killing or taking of a bird included in Part II of Schedule 2, or the injuring of such a bird in the course of an attempt to kill it; So where does that leave us now? If you shoot pigeons and crows under the wildlife and countryside act you can use the exception 4(3) above but if you reply on the general licence then the condition apply and you can only use a semi auto. Therefore the general licence is only for semi automatic weapons, cage traps and nets. So we did not did to have all the shooting press hype over having to scare or shoo the pigeon and crows first. If I’m wrong and we need the general licence to shoot pigeon and crows then I would like in written in the same way as the Scottish licence to make things clear. That is why I have written to Natural England and recommended that the wording on the licence should be changed. Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981 as emended http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1981/69 General Licence GL04 https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/wild-birds-licence-to-take-or-kill-to-prevent-damage-or-disease General Licence Scotland 02/2015 http://www.snh.gov.uk/protecting-scotlands-nature/species-licensing/bird-licensing/general/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunsmoke Posted January 22, 2015 Author Report Share Posted January 22, 2015 Got this for Natural England today: Dear xxxx xxxxxxx Thank you for your recent emails to which I write in reply. You raise issues and concerns with the English General Licences in those emails. We would like to clarify that the methods permitted under GL04 (To kill or take certain wild birds to prevent serious damage or disease) have not changed in any way at this re-issue of the licences, nor at any time since we became responsible for issue of the licences in 2008. This also applies for other licences that permit the taking or killing of wild birds (WML-GL03 to 05 and Class Licence WML-CL12). Thus the methods that were legal to use under these licences in 2008 (and also before that date) are still legal today. These include shotguns, rifles and air weapons – all of a suitable bore/calibre for the species concerned. The licences in England permit anyone using them to use a lawful method to take the action under that licence. As a result of feedback from you and others following the issue of the licences on 1 January, we have subsequently updated the wording relating to what the licence permits to better reflect that they allow the killing and taking of certain species of birds, as well as permitting the use of certain methods prohibited by the Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981 (as amended). Thank you for highlighting this issue to us. As you will be aware we undertook a public consultation in 2014 regarding the General Licences and Natural England’s Board made decisions on various proposals for changes to the licences, after considering the responses we received. Changes approved to go ahead have been implemented in the 2015 licences. We are looking to continually improve licences and make them as user-friendly as they can be, including improving consistency between the Welsh, Scottish and English licences. Natural England consults on significant changes to the terms and conditions of General Licences because of the widespread use of the licences and potential for impacts on significant numbers of individuals. Before addressing the issue you raise relating to the inconsistency between Scottish and English licences, and making the change you request, it would be expected that we undertake a public consultation on the subject. It is our view that there are likely to be widely differing views on the subject – as there are pros and cons with both the English and Scottish approaches. As we have only just consulted on the licences then it is highly unlikely that we will do so again in the near future, however the issue you raise is one that will be recorded for future consideration. You also ask whether you can use the defence at Section 4(3) of the Act. The answer to this is that you need to read further on into the legislation, to Section 4(5). This subsection states that a person cannot rely upon the defence provided at 4(3) under certain circumstances, and goes on to list these. Salient ones to your question are that if the problem was already apparent and that a licence had not been applied for when the issue had become apparent. As a licence is issued (as GL04, 05 and 06) then there is no need to rely upon the defence within the Act. The defence is intended to apply to ‘emergency’ situations – which will rarely apply to the purposes of the General Licences (with the exception of health and safety). Additionally the problems that the General Licence can be used to prevent or restrict are largely foreseeable and a licence could be applied for – which again would mean that the defence would not apply. Thus you may use any otherwise lawful method to control the species listed on the English General Licences and also the listed activities prohibited by the Act, and you do not need to rely upon the defence to take action. Yours sincerely Sustainable Development Wildlife Licensing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dougall Posted January 22, 2015 Report Share Posted January 22, 2015 gunsmoke thanks for posting all this...why is that our laws are always written as tongue twisters and curve balls......the double and even triple negatives are great for lawyers but diabolical for Law abiders.....I guess it was ever thus.....!!atb. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunsmoke Posted January 22, 2015 Author Report Share Posted January 22, 2015 (edited) gunsmoke thanks for posting all this...why is that our laws are always written as tongue twisters and curve balls......the double and even triple negatives are great for lawyers but diabolical for Law abiders.....I guess it was ever thus.....!!atb. The general licence has been like this for over 9 years. Because the GL was issued under the wrong section of the W&C Act is was illegal to shoot pigeons and crows over crops for the last 9 years. The problem now is over the wording of the methods that can be used. The Wildlife and Countryside Act no longer covers the killing of Pigeon or Crows as they have been removed for schedule 1 part 2 of the Act. The exception under section 4 does not apply to licences. We now need to clear up the wording of the methods that can be used. The way it is worded now makes it look like you can't use a semi auto on a shotgun certificate. Also if it does not cover semi auto's on a shotgun certificate where does that leave using a SxS or O/U and air gun? I do not know the answer. Edited January 23, 2015 by gunsmoke Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lister22 Posted January 23, 2015 Report Share Posted January 23, 2015 hi this is the welsh licence naturalresourceswales.gov.uk_content_docs_pdfs_apply-and-buy_protected-species-licensing_general-licence-001 - Copy - Copy (2).pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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