njc110381 Posted April 14, 2007 Report Share Posted April 14, 2007 I agree that the majority of gun safety is down to the guy pulling the trigger. That doesn't mean that a safe shot couldn't come unstuck with a ricochet in an unlucky situation! I'd prefer a HMR because it's less likely to bounce off a stone in the grass and fly off somewhere that I'm not aiming! That doesn't mean it can be relied upon to stop when it hits the ground at a shallow angle, but there's more chance that the HMR will break up when compared to a .22lr. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markbivvy Posted April 14, 2007 Report Share Posted April 14, 2007 correct me if i'm wrong but would it not be possible to just pull the bullets out of a standard .17hmr cartridge, so very wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hellier0437 Posted April 14, 2007 Report Share Posted April 14, 2007 correct me if i'm wrong but would it not be possible to just pull the bullets out of a standard .17hmr cartridge, so very wrong. why, i know of people that have done it with .22lr in order to test the consistancy of the powder amounts about the effectiveness of a .17 sub, surely it would be a useful round to have even if it was only as good as an air rifle, it would allow close range shots to be taken quietly without scaring off everything else Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markbivvy Posted April 14, 2007 Report Share Posted April 14, 2007 why, i know of people that have done it with .22lr in order to test the consistancy of the powder amounts and put them back together and fired them.?:good:??? about the effectiveness of a .17 sub why would you want this instead of of a 22 rf sub. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hellier0437 Posted April 14, 2007 Report Share Posted April 14, 2007 about the effectiveness of a .17 sub why would you want this instead of of a 22 rf sub. because a .17 in supersonic is a far better calibre for foxes/long range than a .22lr Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markbivvy Posted April 14, 2007 Report Share Posted April 14, 2007 about the effectiveness of a .17 sub why would you want this instead of of a 22 rf sub. because a .17 in supersonic is a far better calibre for foxes/long range than a .22lr ?:good:???:lol:???:o??:D????? by the way graham m is not wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hellier0437 Posted April 14, 2007 Report Share Posted April 14, 2007 all i'm saying is that hypothetically, if one was out with a .17HMR and a rabbit presented itself at 30-50 yards, it would be useful to have a subsonic round to despatch it quickly and quietly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wy111 Posted April 15, 2007 Report Share Posted April 15, 2007 Reducing loads in a cartridge is dam right dangerous. There are only a very few powders that will allow reduced loads and are for centrefire rifles and pistols and should only then be tried by experienced reloaders with the correct reloading manuals. Most powders used today are for a minimum of 90% of case volume and one, H100 should not be reduced below 97%. If you reduce the load, many powders will not completetly burn and because of this, can cause the bullet to lodge in the barrel, with disastrous results if not noticed and a second shot fired and one thing is certain, YOU don't know what the powder is in the HMR rounds. Anyway, imagine the senario, You've loaded up the clip with normal rounds, see a near rabbit. You've got to unload then reload with a "subsonic", all done, probably in the dark, what noise would you make doing all this? The rabbit will have probably gone for good or out of your "subsonic" range, so the you've got to again reload with the normal rounds. If the HMR was made to fire subsonics, there would be rounds available for them. That's why it's called a MAGNUM rimfire. because a .17 in supersonic is a far better calibre for foxes/long range than a .22lr Technically, 22lr is not legal for foxes, but I, as many have done, have shot foxes with one! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hellier0437 Posted April 15, 2007 Report Share Posted April 15, 2007 Reducing loads in a cartridge is dam right dangerous. TTechnically, 22lr is not legal for foxes, but I, as many have done, have shot foxes with one! out of interest, what is the criteria for rounds which are legal for foxes? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wy111 Posted April 15, 2007 Report Share Posted April 15, 2007 out of interest, what is the criteria for rounds which are legal for foxes? Have a look at PWUK > Country Sports > Guns & Equipment :-Pinned> Firearms Law. It gives you all the legal calibers for shooting different avian and mammal species. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
codling99 Posted April 15, 2007 Report Share Posted April 15, 2007 .22 not legal for fox? well i asked for one for fox,and feo said no problems,out to 70yds .never been a fan of .17 myself,lovely wepon,but dont see the need..22 with subs,will drop a fox easy at 70 yd,and drop a rabbit at 100 yds ,aslong as you can hit them in the right place,confidence and shooting ability counts more than calibre.if ya wanna shoot rabbits,get a .22.if ya wanna shoot foxes,get a centre fire. .17 a bit loud for rabbits,and a bit silly for foxes if you can have a center fire.imho. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markbivvy Posted April 15, 2007 Report Share Posted April 15, 2007 22 not legal for fox? well i asked for one for fox, if ya wanna shoot foxes,get a centre fire. explaine please. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wy111 Posted April 16, 2007 Report Share Posted April 16, 2007 22 not legal for fox? well i asked for one for fox,and feo said no problemscodling99 22 not legal for fox? well i asked for one for fox, if ya wanna shoot foxes,get a centre fire. explaine please. markbivvy If you have actually read the article, "Firearms Law", you should know that a .22rimfire is NOT legal for fox, only the .22 hornet, which as I see, you have one, which is a centrefire and is allowed under certain circumstances. At the moment, only centrefire can legally be used for fox. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markbivvy Posted April 16, 2007 Report Share Posted April 16, 2007 hi Dave i think we could have a crossed wire here mate. i was a asking codling99, why he had asked for a 22 rimmie for fox, then whent on to say if ya wnna shoot foxes get a centre fire. ps. At the moment, only centrefire can legally be used for fox you may get a few replys to the above from some westyorkshire members who have fox on their ticket with the .22 rimmie. strange old world is the firearms law,when it comes to conditions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wy111 Posted April 16, 2007 Report Share Posted April 16, 2007 hi Davei think we could have a crossed wire here mate. markbivvy Your right there! My apologies for any misconception. This posting has slightly got off-base, but it seems some FEO's don't seem to know the legislation properly, or are very lenient on applications! The Officer who does around here is a great bloke, BUT, he also knows the business, he is a rifle shooter himself. Although the law states that rimfire can't legally be used for foxes, I myself have shot them with a .22 lr , but only under 50yds and when I deemed that I could get a PERFECT shot placement. Standard .22lr subsonics are notorious for being 3"-4" out at times, and that is discounting "flyers". In my opinion if you see a fox, and only have a .22 rimfire, if you cannot intercept it and get a good shot, leave it! Go back another day with a full bore (You don't use a toffee hammer to break concrete). This is how I rate the useage of my tools. (Notice, tools. To me, they are the tools of my profession). Centrefire for foxes. .22 subsonics for day/night rabbiting and small vermin(If you can't get close enough on a night for a .22rf, then your fieldcraft seriously needs refreshing!). .17hmr for DAYTIME shooting. (The firearms law, at the moment, doesn't even have .17hmr on it's list of calibers). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kip270 Posted April 17, 2007 Report Share Posted April 17, 2007 hi Davei think we could have a crossed wire here mate. markbivvy Your right there! My apologies for any misconception. This posting has slightly got off-base, but it seems some FEO's don't seem to know the legislation properly, or are very lenient on applications! The Officer who does around here is a great bloke, BUT, he also knows the business, he is a rifle shooter himself. Although the law states that rimfire can't legally be used for foxes, I myself have shot them with a .22 lr , but only under 50yds and when I deemed that I could get a PERFECT shot placement. Standard .22lr subsonics are notorious for being 3"-4" out at times, and that is discounting "flyers". In my opinion if you see a fox, and only have a .22 rimfire, if you cannot intercept it and get a good shot, leave it! Go back another day with a full bore (You don't use a toffee hammer to break concrete). This is how I rate the useage of my tools. (Notice, tools. To me, they are the tools of my profession). Centrefire for foxes. .22 subsonics for day/night rabbiting and small vermin(If you can't get close enough on a night for a .22rf, then your fieldcraft seriously needs refreshing!). .17hmr for DAYTIME shooting. (The firearms law, at the moment, doesn't even have .17hmr on it's list of calibers). :blink: 13.23 Common rifle cartridges considered suitable for the shooting of foxes range from .17 Remington, and .22 Hornet to .22 -250 and .220 Swift, though there is a wide range of suitable similar calibres commercially available. In windy areas, where heavier bullets aid accurate shooting, or if applicants wish to use one rifle for shooting both deer and foxes they may choose a rifle in 6mm (.243/.244) or 6.5mm (.264) calibre. .22 Rimfire is generally too low-powered to be used against fox except at short range, but may reasonably be permitted for use against such quarry in certain circumstances. However, sole use against fox would not normally be sufficient good reason to acquire such a rifle. So yes the .22 rim is LEGAL for FOX, as it says not SOLE USE FOR FOX. What do you mean standard .22 subs can be 3"-4" out, your having a laugh, if that was the case i wouldn't shoot one. Once zeroed my rimmy is spot on all the time Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hellier0437 Posted April 17, 2007 Report Share Posted April 17, 2007 just wondering, what does it have to say on your FAC to allow you to shoot foxes. does it have to say fox explicitly? foir example if, when out after rabbts, if a fox apeared at 20yards, could it legally be shot with a .22lr which was on the FAC for vermin? just wondering as there does not seem to be much in the legislation about the definition of vermin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kip270 Posted April 17, 2007 Report Share Posted April 17, 2007 just wondering, what does it have to say on your FAC to allow you to shoot foxes. does it have to say fox explicitly? foir example if, when out after rabbts, if a fox apeared at 20yards, could it legally be shot with a .22lr which was on the FAC for vermin? just wondering as there does not seem to be much in the legislation about the definition of vermin. Depends on your local force and what they class as vermin (this subject has been done several times) some say fox is classed as Vermin others put Fox seperate on your ticket Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hellier0437 Posted April 17, 2007 Report Share Posted April 17, 2007 how do i find out what they mean? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kip270 Posted April 17, 2007 Report Share Posted April 17, 2007 Ring your FEO/FLO or the firearms dept and enquire Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tuck1 Posted April 17, 2007 Report Share Posted April 17, 2007 It does seem a bit confusing. I was with my FEO an hour ago and we chatted about foxes and .22lr. He was of the opinion that its OK under certain circs, but the RSPCA don't like it, and it should only be used carefully. I have used it successfully in the past, at close range for oppurtunist shots. West Yorks does seem to be a little different to some other forces. Tuck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markbivvy Posted April 17, 2007 Report Share Posted April 17, 2007 West Yorks does seem to be a little different to some other forces. when i asked west yorkshire for the 17hmr i was told no chance what so ever. but i know people in the region who have fox on there .22 rimmie. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tuck1 Posted April 17, 2007 Report Share Posted April 17, 2007 West Yorks does seem to be a little different to some other forces. when i asked west yorkshire for the 17hmr i was told no chance what so ever. but i know people in the region who have fox on there .22 rimmie. Very confusing. Nothing is specified on mine, except pest/zeroing. An FEO told me once that .17 was "less powerful" than .22. Hmmm. Didn't ask him to define powerful.... I think those in doubt need to ring firearms to clarify. Tuck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hellier0437 Posted April 17, 2007 Report Share Posted April 17, 2007 also, when it says zeroing on your FAC, when does zeroing become target shooting? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tuck1 Posted April 18, 2007 Report Share Posted April 18, 2007 also, when it says zeroing on your FAC, when does zeroing become target shooting? Exactly!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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