njc110381 Posted January 31, 2008 Report Share Posted January 31, 2008 I've written this letter to send in. I've not completely finished it yet as I've been advised that the chief of police may be a better target than the head of firearms, so who I send it to may vary. See what you think of it.... Dear Mr *head of firearms*, I am writing to you regarding an application for a less restrictive firearms certificate. I have been advised by PC *some other bloke below you* that the usual requirement for the grant of a certificate allowing me to judge the suitability of my own land in Gloucestershire is three years of shooting experience. I do however know of shooters in other counties who have had their restrictions removed in less than a year. Although I have not had my certificate for long I feel that my request is fair in the circumstances. I have been a certificate holder for approximately two months, which I understand is not very long at all. However, due to the unfortunate loss of my first application I have actually been shooting under supervision of both my mentor and several other landowners for well over a year. During this time I have experienced shots taken both by myself and by others in a wide variety of situations; from small flat orchards with a .22lr and high seat, to the management of Deer on large estates in Devon. Due to this considerable experience, I feel I have learned the suitability (or more importantly, lack of suitability) of a range of ground much more quickly than the average shooter. For safety reasons every piece of ground I shoot is also studied on an OS map to establish the position of footpaths, dwellings and roads, as well as the contours of the land, before I decide what is safe. At present the shooter who accompanies me then checks my decision. I have never misjudged the safety of a shot. I have several reasons for the early request of a less restrictive certificate. The main advantage it would give me is that I would be able to shoot as part of my work as a gardener on many small estates in the area. I am regularly asked by my customers to control Rabbits and other pests in paddocks which have never been shot over before. To have these areas cleared for a one off vermin control plan would be both impractical (I have been advised that I have to apply in writing before I can be told if ground is cleared) and a waste of police time (sometimes I get several requests a week). It would also cause concern to some clients as the thought of having to have their ground cleared by the police can make non gun owners feel uneasy. For this reason I have to pass on the task to other shooters who have unrestricted certificates, which is at times a great loss to me financially. I am aware that the 6.5x55 rifle on my certificate may be a cause for concern in this matter. Deer can do a great deal of damage to flower beds and vegetable patches as well as to crops on smallholdings so I would appreciate it if it could be included if possible? If it is the deciding factor between being granted the unrestricted certificate or keeping a restriction I could manage with the 6.5x55 being restricted for a little longer. My mentor is very happy with my progress and will be writing me a covering letter to include with my certificate once I have received a decision. I have not yet sent my certificate in to be updated as I would rather get these points covered first to reduce your already heavy workload. I feel that coming to a mutual agreement of new terms would benefit us both as I would not need to return the certificate for amendments to be made. It would save us both a great deal of time and effort in the future if land checks were not required for these short term permissions. I would be grateful if you could reply in writing so I have a record of what has been agreed. This will remove the possibility of any misunderstanding when the final paperwork is printed. Thank you for your time. I hope to hear from you in the near future regarding this matter. Yours sincerely, *njc* Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tulkyuk Posted January 31, 2008 Report Share Posted January 31, 2008 (edited) Hi, I would take out the part about your 6.5 and let them comment on it ( you can then ask at that point, it it is raised at all) Apart from that it all seems fine. I would also email it to them, as then you can have a receipt of acceptance. Good luck and i hope you get what your after Edited January 31, 2008 by tulkyuk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunkield Posted January 31, 2008 Report Share Posted January 31, 2008 It's fine, but would say it was too long. I would also remove: "I would be grateful if you could reply in writing so I have a record of what has been agreed. This will remove the possibility of any misunderstanding when the final paperwork is printed" Sounds like you don't trust them I am not saying mine was perfect, but it worked. It was more along the lines of, I have spoken to (FEO) and ha advised me to write to you. My reasons for wanting the restriction removed are: 1) 2) 3) etc. Include you licence with the letter, IF they are going to do it, they do it there and then. It was a few years ago and things have changed a lot, but I got mine turned round in about 4 days from memory, no contact it just came back done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bradders Posted January 31, 2008 Report Share Posted January 31, 2008 NJC It looks good to me, however, I would consider the relevance of stating that "I do however know of shooters in other counties who have had their restrictions removed in less than a year. Although I have not had my certificate for long I feel that my request is fair in the circumstances" is not a positive point it may well have the adverse effct. It would be relevant if you knew of someone from the same constabulary as you who had an open license. I would focus purely on why you need one, which you have articulated well and of couse the impracticalities of having one of his officers visit and approve the land. To help add weight to the argument that you have been asked to shoot on land but have had to get "piad help" from an open ticket holder you should get a permission slip from each of the estates you work for yourself so you actually have evidence to back up your claim, if you have several permissions youmay find an open ticket easier to obtain. It's also IMHO a little wordy. Basically....tell them what you want, why you want it, and the provide the evidence of competence (get your mentor to write a summary you can attatch) and include the permission slips/lettters. Good luck.....Bradders Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tulkyuk Posted January 31, 2008 Report Share Posted January 31, 2008 As Bradders says, it would be good to get a letter from your Mentor too I am a mentor for a friend and all i have to do is send a letter when i think he's cofident enough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
njc110381 Posted January 31, 2008 Author Report Share Posted January 31, 2008 It does chat on a bit doesn't it. I didn't want it too short though as I'd like to give a background for my reasons rather than just telling him what I want. The 6.5 doesn't matter, so as it's going to be the gun that holds him back I'd rather have it restricted than have all of them closed. As for the not trusting them bit, I'm sure he knows that I don't already. It took me two applications and over ten months to get the certificate in the first place because of their balls up! I'm going to remove it though, and send the certificate in with it. He can then have a think about it and send it back in whatever state he's prepared to let me have it in. I'll also add a witness statement saying I'm good at judging ground The permission slips are not going to happen though. As a lot of these shoots are a one off, I wasn't planning on having it in writing from all of them unless I have to. It's all going back to the bugging clients thing if I start that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mungler Posted January 31, 2008 Report Share Posted January 31, 2008 Get it down to one page and invite them to ask you to go into greater detail about experience if so required. Also, get your mentor to write to them - he should say, I have seen a copy of NJC's letter dated x and addressed to Y and agree with the contents and can add that he's a smashing chap, not a nutter and very experienced etc etc. Also, finish it off with P.S. I am on the square <<insert funny handshake>> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dusk2dawn Posted January 31, 2008 Report Share Posted January 31, 2008 It does chat on a bit doesn't it. I didn't want it too short though as I'd like to give a background for my reasons rather than just telling him what I want. The 6.5 doesn't matter, so as it's going to be the gun that holds him back I'd rather have it restricted than have all of them closed. As for the not trusting them bit, I'm sure he knows that I don't already. It took me two applications and over ten months to get the certificate in the first place because of their balls up! I'm going to remove it though, and send the certificate in with it. He can then have a think about it and send it back in whatever state he's prepared to let me have it in. I'll also add a witness statement saying I'm good at judging ground The permission slips are not going to happen though. As a lot of these shoots are a one off, I wasn't planning on having it in writing from all of them unless I have to. It's all going back to the bugging clients thing if I start that. Hi, I have a small form that I ask everyone to sign before I will set foot on their land with a firearm, it saves any future complications and satisfies the local bobbies, who at 1am may come along when you are just loading up to go home. Photocopies of these and my FAC/ SGC are carried in my truck, the originals remain safely at home. I usually just say that its an insurance requirement and no one has ever objected. IMO its worth doing even for one off jobs. D2D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
njc110381 Posted January 31, 2008 Author Report Share Posted January 31, 2008 I have something like that which I use on my regular permissions. I fill it in and include a map of the land with a red boundry mark, then get the farmer to sign it. Maybe if I was to reduce it down so it was more basic (ie no map) it could be ok. As you say, it's for insurance purposes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunkield Posted January 31, 2008 Report Share Posted January 31, 2008 Don't forget to tell them you over 2,000 posts on an internet shooting forum as well Neil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
njc110381 Posted January 31, 2008 Author Report Share Posted January 31, 2008 (edited) Don't forget to tell them you over 2,000 posts on an internet shooting forum as well Neil What, so they think I'm some sort of nutter? They'd issue me with an open cert for a spud gun EDIT.... What about your 7294 Edited January 31, 2008 by njc110381 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
njc110381 Posted January 31, 2008 Author Report Share Posted January 31, 2008 Right. I've edited it down to one page and made a few changes based on the general opinion here. I've played with this so many times now that I'm sure it can't be far out, but if you wouldn't mind having another read of it I'd be really grateful for your advice.... Dear Mr *head of firearms*, I am writing to you regarding an application for a less restrictive firearms certificate. I have been a certificate holder for two months. However, due to the unfortunate loss of my first application I have actually been shooting under supervision of both my mentor and several other landowners for well over a year. During this time I have experienced shots taken both by myself and by others in a wide variety of situations, from small flat orchards with a .22lr and high seat, to the management of Deer on large estates in Devon. Due to this considerable experience I feel I have learned the suitability (or more importantly, lack of suitability) of a range of ground much more quickly than the average shooter. Having read the Home Office guidelines I realise that each case can be considered on its own merits, so I feel I have just cause for my request. The reasons are; 1. I would be able to shoot new ground at short notice as part of my work as a gardener (I have been advised that I have to apply in writing before I can be told if ground is cleared, in which time the damage caused would be beyond repair). 2. I am regularly asked by my clients to shoot pests in paddocks and large gardens which have never been shot over before (sometimes several per week). 3. Currently I have to pass on the task to other shooters who have unrestricted certificates, which is at times a great loss to me financially. I feel that coming to a mutual agreement of new terms would benefit us both. It would save both the police and I a great deal of time and effort in the future if land checks were not required for these short term permissions. My mentor is very happy with my progress and has written me a covering letter to include for your peace of mind. Thank you for your time. I hope to hear from you in the near future regarding this matter. Yours sincerely, *Me* Thanks for the replies so far. This is really important to me and all your advice is a great help Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dustyfox Posted January 31, 2008 Report Share Posted January 31, 2008 too long I only read the first paragraph. And i Am sure the officer wont read much further. shorting it a bit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunkield Posted January 31, 2008 Report Share Posted January 31, 2008 How many rifle cartridges have been purchased in 2 months? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
njc110381 Posted January 31, 2008 Author Report Share Posted January 31, 2008 (edited) How many rifle cartridges have been purchased in 2 months? 1260 rounds. 60 6.5x55 not including reloading which isn't listed but they know about. 250 .17hmr. 950 .22lr. Is that enough? I only have pest and Deer shooting on my FAC. edited to change my **** maths Edited January 31, 2008 by njc110381 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexm Posted January 31, 2008 Report Share Posted January 31, 2008 Here, how about a slightly more concise version: Dear Mr *head of firearms*, I am writing to you to request a less restrictive firearms certificate as the current conditions are affecting my ability to meet the pest control requirements currently asked of me. Although my certificate was issued two months ago I have, due to the loss of my first application, actually been shooting under supervision of both my mentor and several other landowners for well over a year. During this time I have gained a wide experience of firearm use in the field (circa 2,000 rounds), from small flat orchards with a .22lr and high seat, to the management of Deer on large estates in Devon and therefore feel I am capable of assessing the suitability of ground for a particular firearm. I have enclosed a letter of reference from my mentor confirming that he considers me competent and safe with a firearm in the field and, over the past year, experienced enough to assess the suitability of a firearm for a given situation. I would therefore like to ask that you consider removing the condition restricting the use of my firearms to land approved by the police. I hope to hear from you in the near future regarding this matter. Yours sincerely, *Me* Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
webber Posted January 31, 2008 Report Share Posted January 31, 2008 Alexms version looks much better to me. webber Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tulkyuk Posted January 31, 2008 Report Share Posted January 31, 2008 i think youe second atempt is the better one to go for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
njc110381 Posted January 31, 2008 Author Report Share Posted January 31, 2008 Here, how about a slightly more concise version: Dear Mr *head of firearms*, I am writing to you to request a less restrictive firearms certificate as the current conditions are affecting my ability to meet the pest control requirements currently asked of me. Although my certificate was issued two months ago I have, due to the loss of my first application, actually been shooting under supervision of both my mentor and several other landowners for well over a year. During this time I have gained a wide experience of firearm use in the field (circa 2,000 rounds), from small flat orchards with a .22lr and high seat, to the management of Deer on large estates in Devon and therefore feel I am capable of assessing the suitability of ground for a particular firearm. I have enclosed a letter of reference from my mentor confirming that he considers me competent and safe with a firearm in the field and, over the past year, experienced enough to assess the suitability of a firearm for a given situation. I would therefore like to ask that you consider removing the condition restricting the use of my firearms to land approved by the police. I hope to hear from you in the near future regarding this matter. Yours sincerely, *Me* :unsure: I do like that. It's short and to the point. I do feel that my reasons for needing the open ticket have been edited out though, it sounds too much like I just want one! If I can show a need, that gives me more chance. Wanting something isn't enough to get what you want with a FAC, you have to show need Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexm Posted February 1, 2008 Report Share Posted February 1, 2008 I do like that. It's short and to the point. I do feel that my reasons for needing the open ticket have been edited out though, it sounds too much like I just want one! If I can show a need, that gives me more chance. Wanting something isn't enough to get what you want with a FAC, you have to show need I see what you're saying and I guess you can expand a bit more on the first sentence as to why you are asking for it, but your 'need' doesn't matter to the police if they can't be sure you are safe to do your own assessments. To their minds they have satisfied your *legal* 'need' when they granted the certificate. I would imagine what matters to the police now is that their behinds are covered should you be allowed to assess your own land. Therefore making the most of the fact that you have had ample experience and, probably more importantly, have someone qualified and willing to testify to that effect should be the important points to labour on. The latter fact effectively takes, to some extent, liability for the decision away from the police which is probably quite an attractive proposition in today's litigious society! Good luck with it anyway... :unsure: I've got all this still to look forward to Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunkield Posted February 1, 2008 Report Share Posted February 1, 2008 When I had my my pre-letter going in chat with my FEO, he asked if not having an 'open' certificate was restricting me? I said 'yes' and he said just tell them that, they should understand. I agree NJC, if you sound like you want one and don't need one they will not look at the request so favourably. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
njc110381 Posted February 1, 2008 Author Report Share Posted February 1, 2008 I've got all this still to look forward to You never know, you may get open first time if you give them a few initial permissions. If you think you'll need open then let them know that, they may be in a good mood that day! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mr Pieman Posted February 12, 2008 Report Share Posted February 12, 2008 I'll be amazed if they allow an open ticket inside the first renewal date. The Police seem to be accepting less and less reasons for 'going open' quickly. It may just be experience of my local force, but I think it is too soon (in the eyes of the police). On my first cert - some years ago, I used over 8000 .22 rounds a year - lots of experience - but they still made me wait until renewal. Sussex 'open' licenses pretty much automatically on renewal now. Wishing you the best of luck, but don't take it personally if they refuse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
njc110381 Posted February 12, 2008 Author Report Share Posted February 12, 2008 If it's turned down I'll get over it. I still have plenty of hobby permissions that are easy to get passed (most are already). I can pass on work to friends if I have to, I'd just love to be paid to shoot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shootingman Posted February 12, 2008 Report Share Posted February 12, 2008 I hope you get it but as you've only held a FAC for 2mths don't be surprised if they tell you to wait until you've had it 6/12mths. Best of luck m8. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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