reasons for getting a FAC

[flash]

im looking at applying for an FAC in the very near future.

im going to join the rifle club in the village which i am able to shoot up to 7.62 on.

putting down both this and vermin control would this be reason enough to get a .22 rimfire.

the other thing is that my dad has an FAC, and on it has a 22, 243, 7.62 and a 20 06

being a member of a rifle club would this allow me to have the same calibres as dad as i would be using his rifles.

 

cheers

 

flash

[bob300w]

Both club membership and vermin control are valid reasons to own a 22, if you own a shotgun already, it should be a formality. It is unlikely that you will get all of these calibres on your first application, it just depends on the attitude of your Firearms Enquiry Officer and local police policy. You may also have to have your own gun cabinet as you would only be allowed access to weapons on your ticket. Have a chat with your local FEO, your father will know who he is. Best of luck.

[Wookie]

Both club membership and vermin control are valid reasons to own a 22, if you own a shotgun already, it should be a formality.

 

If only....

 

I think a lot of it really iss down to your FEO and your legitimate reasons for wanting a FAC. I you want a .22 for vermin, a .22 for target and you have both land to shoot on and are a member of a club, then you should be sorted. I would not say it is a formality in any way though.

[bob300w]

Both club membership and vermin control are valid reasons to own a 22, if you own a shotgun already, it should be a formality.

 

If only....

 

I think a lot of it really iss down to your FEO and your legitimate reasons for wanting a FAC. I you want a .22 for vermin, a .22 for target and you have both land to shoot on and are a member of a club, then you should be sorted. I would not say it is a formality in any way though.

 

Home Office Publication; Guidance to Police, page 67, section 6, paragraph 6;

A Chief Officer of Police must not grant a certificate to any person whom he has reason to believe to be;

(a) Prohibited by the act from possessing Firearms.

Of intemperate habits or unsound mind

c)To be for any reason unfitted to be trusted with a firearm.

 

Therefore, if, as I said, you already have a shotgun it should be a formality, as you already satisfy these criteria and been subject to screening.

If you are refused an FAC, Police are expected to give their reasons (Sectios 6.7), these reasons may be appealed against.

 

That smiley should not be there, can't edit it out!

Edited March 3, 2008 by bob300w

[Wookie]

I have been through all this over the last few weeks and it is not that simple. I've even read the Home Office guidence to ACPO.

 

Yes, your three points are valid for an immediate non-grant, but there is sufficient wiggle room in the "Good Reason" section that they could, can and maybe will try to prevent ownership. Remember that the definition of "Good Reason" is not the same for rifles as it is for shotguns.

 

I can own a shotgun because I want to shoot clays. I can do that at any ground that has facilities and, assuming I meet the three criteria you mentioned, they should not have an issue. If I apply for a .223 because I want to shoot foxes, it opens up a whole new can o' worms. You need permission, you need the land cleared for .223, you need expereince of that calibre (as stated in the guidance).

 

If you just put down "occaisional shooting" on the form thinking it's the same as buying a shotgun for the odd time that some people might use it for clays or game, there is no way in hell you would get a grant. I have over 400 acres of rabbit infested land to shoot on, a land owner that wants me out there trimming down numbers as much as possible, prior experience of .22 shooting, sound mind, not prohibited from owning a firearm and trustworthy with firearms generally and I _STILL_ had to go through a million hoops to get a grant for both .22 and .17HMR.

 

Yes, Cambs might be tougher than other forces, but it is not just down to those three reasons not being true.

[njc110381]

I'd imagine that in your situation you should be fine. If you shoot with your dad anyway then ask if he can be your mentor before they tell you you need it. That way you should get all his calibres on your FAC.

 

Don't quote me on this but I think a gun can be held on two FACs at the same time. If you share all of them with your dad and list his guns on your ticket (shotguns and rifles) then you (I think) can have access to his safe. Look into it, I'm 99% certain it is allowed

[bob300w]

I'd imagine that in your situation you should be fine. If you shoot with your dad anyway then ask if he can be your mentor before they tell you you need it. That way you should get all his calibres on your FAC.

 

Don't quote me on this but I think a gun can be held on two FACs at the same time. If you share all of them with your dad and list his guns on your ticket (shotguns and rifles) then you (I think) can have access to his safe. Look into it, I'm 99% certain it is allowed

What you say is correct, a gun can be held on two tickets at one time, but unless the lad has all of his fathers rifles on his ticket, he won't be able to acess the gun cabinet as it contains other guns. I think it unlikely on a first issue that he would be allowed all of these guns, but.... stranger things have happened! One can but try!

[mossy835]

should have no trouble getting one, put in for it.

[bob300w]

I have been through all this over the last few weeks and it is not that simple. I've even read the Home Office guidence to ACPO.

 

Yes, your three points are valid for an immediate non-grant, but there is sufficient wiggle room in the "Good Reason" section that they could, can and maybe will try to prevent ownership. Remember that the definition of "Good Reason" is not the same for rifles as it is for shotguns.

 

I can own a shotgun because I want to shoot clays. I can do that at any ground that has facilities and, assuming I meet the three criteria you mentioned, they should not have an issue. If I apply for a .223 because I want to shoot foxes, it opens up a whole new can o' worms. You need permission, you need the land cleared for .223, you need expereince of that calibre (as stated in the guidance).

 

If you just put down "occaisional shooting" on the form thinking it's the same as buying a shotgun for the odd time that some people might use it for clays or game, there is no way in hell you would get a grant. I have over 400 acres of rabbit infested land to shoot on, a land owner that wants me out there trimming down numbers as much as possible, prior experience of .22 shooting, sound mind, not prohibited from owning a firearm and trustworthy with firearms generally and I _STILL_ had to go through a million hoops to get a grant for both .22 and .17HMR.

Yes, Cambs might be tougher than other forces, but it is not just down to those three reasons not being true.

Sorry to hear you are having all of these problems, I did not realise that Cambridge was so finicky about firearms.

I assume from the wording that you have now got your ticket? In your case, I would have gone through the BASC, they would have fought this one for you.

As a matter of interest, the wording in the guidance that you refer to is; section 6.7;

The Chief Officer of Police has to satisfy himself on two points; that the applicant

a. has a good reason for requiring the firearms or ammunition in respect of which the application is made.

and

b. can be permitted to have the firearm or ammunition without danger to public safety or to keep the peace,

There are another 10 pargraphs covering the good reason, which as you say gives lots of wriggling room.

There have been instances in Essex of lads having their licenses withdrawn, purely because they were getting a divorce, which is not covered in any of the guidance. Also convictions for drink driving usually mean a loss of your FAC and SGC.

However my orignal point was that if you are trustworthy, sober, whatever, enough to hold a shotgun licence then you should be likewise for an FAC. I have a cousin in the Essex Police, he has always maintained that it is the public's right to own firearms, not the right of the force to choose who does and who does not. I think that he is being a bit naive! Not only that, it's a dam shame that he is not a FEO!

[flash]

thanks for the info. if i was to apply i would deffo apply for all the same firearms. as it would be silly to just apply for 22 and have to get a whole other gun cabinet to store it in.

i shoot all of the other rifles on a relatively regular basis.

[duey]

Flash

 

you can request that you have a borrow and lend clause added to your FAC that will enable you to share storeage with your dad and also to borro and use his guns and ammo

 

this may or not be available to you due to age, experiance, or calibers allowed on your own ticket but enquire with your FEO about this as i have two other peoples firearms on my cirtificate

 

Ian

[Wookie]

Bob.

 

No ticket yet, I am currently 1 week into the six week wait to see if I get the grant. I'm going to be giving them a call later in the week to see what the score is.

 

The problem I had was a perceived lack of experience, even though the ACPO guidance does not list experience of the calibre at the end of the paragraph for .22lr (rimfire calibres) as it does for every other band of calibres. I did talk to BASC about it (several times) and took onboard some of their guidance, but it came down to the head of firearms at Cambs assigning me another FEO. Draw your own conclusions from that.

 

My advice now to anyone going for a FAC is to speak to BASC Firearms first, have damned good reasons for all the calibres you want to obtain and to be reasonable about why you want them (i.e. don't be greedy).

 

Whilst it might be a right to own a firearm, the "Good Reason" bits are very open to interpretation and _will_ trip people up.

[Piebob]

SGC is a "right". FAC is a "priviledge" (which you have to earn/justify/have good reason/etc)

[bob300w]

Keep phoning them, The number of times that I have heard "yours is on the pile, we are working down to it", be polite, tell them that your farmer is having huge problems with rabbits, and if it is at all possible etc. etc. if you get someone half human on the phone they may well push it through, Any chance that your farmer will phone them on your behalf, giving the same reason?

I can't believe that yours will be refused, but if it is go straight to the BASC, the Police should give you a reason, if they don't, ask for one and appeal. A very large number of appeals are won. As for the "perceived lack of experience" excuse, that's a non-starter, how does anybody get experience without first having a gun?

It's a bit late for you, but for anyone else applying, get someone who knows you, (the person who signed your application, a farmer, your club secretary) to include a letter saying that they have been shooting with you, or have seen you shooting with a shotgun and consider you experienced and safe, this can only help. In your case it sounds as though HQ have issued instructions to cut down on the number of firearms in the County. Be positive and polite, you will win! Keep us informed of how it goes, best of luck.

Dictionary definition of perceive; to recognize, discern, envision, or understand:

[bob300w]

SGC is a "right". FAC is a "priviledge" (which you have to earn/justify/have good reason/etc)

Not true. Section 7.6 of The Firearms (Amendment)Act 1988 states quite clearly that;

No certificate shall be granted or renewed if the Chief Officer of Police;

a) has reason to believe that the applicant is prohibited by the act from possessing a shot gun: or

is satisfied that the applicant does not have a good reason for possessing, puchasing or aquiring one.

[Piebob]

I'll quote Bill Harriman (BASC Firearms Director) then, from Shooting Times article "Letter of the Law". In it he writes "In Britain we have a right to own shotguns, but every right brings with it duties and liabilities".

 

I think you might be confusing what is a right versus what is a duty or obligation in order to exercise that right. I'm sure I've seen a good explanation of the terms somewhere but can't find it now.

[duey]

Piebob

 

were talking about rifles not shotguns, different set of rules

 

Ian