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air guns a legal question


peter-peter
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This is a grey area in your case, the wording of the VCRA is;

 

Sections 31 to 34 deal with the misuse of air weapons. Section 31 requires anyone who wishes to sell air weapons by way of trade or business to register with the police as a firearms dealer. Section 32 requires such sales of air weapons to be made face to face.

 

It depends on whether the police would view your activities as trade or business, and this I imagine would depend upon your turnover. Why not phone your HQ and ask? Personally, I would put it in writing to the firearms office manager, if he says that it's OK to continue without being an RFD, you then have it in writing should any problems of this nature arise in the future.

 

It's all here; http://www.wikicrimeline.co.uk/index.php?t..._2:_Weapons_etc.

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  peter-peter said:
since I retired I spend most of my time renovating old air rifles.

most are for myself but some surplus to requirements.

I am told by my local gun shop I would need a rfd licence to sell any on.

advice please.

 

 

Sportsmans Association SAGBNI member

BASC member

 

There are no restrictions on Private sales - irrespective of age - the law ONLY requires an 'airgun rfd ' if the person is doing his selling 'BY WAY OF TRADE ' - hobbyists , thankfully do not come into this .

 

Not many know this - but most Gunshops are allowed to ignore the face to face sale law if the gun is older than 1939 - BASC has a long list somplied with the Home Office showing vintage airguns tha Can be posted direct .

If you find a Gunshop with an airgun you want made prioer to this date - thye can post direct - if you can convince them ...

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if its as a hobby and you trade a couple of guns at a time then don't worry too much, if you go down the dealer route you'll probably need to declare to the revenue your activities and then it simply won't be worth doing. If you were to get pulled up on it plead ignorance and just say you weren't running a business just selling a few air guns you had tidied up

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  al4x said:
if its as a hobby and you trade a couple of guns at a time then don't worry too much, if you go down the dealer route you'll probably need to declare to the revenue your activities and then it simply won't be worth doing. If you were to get pulled up on it plead ignorance and just say you weren't running a business just selling a few air guns you had tidied up

You are probably correct al4x, although ignorance of the law would not be a defence in the unlikely event of it going to court. My point was that, if only for the peace of mind, it's simple enough to ask your HQ, and preferably get it in writing.

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There you go Peter, as most of the guns that you deal with are vintage, the acts do not apply;

 

VCRA 2006;7. In accordance with section 58(2) of the 1968 Act, it will not be necessary to register as a dealer where sales or transfers involve only antique air weapons which are kept as curiosities or ornaments. Following consultation with the police and interested parties the Home Office is of the view that any air weapon manufactured before 1939 should normally be regarded as an antique for these purposes. This advice applies only in these very limited circumstances and does not apply to assessing whether other firearms are antiques under section 58(2), where the existing guidance in chapter 8 of Firearms Law, Guidance to the Police 2002 should be used.

 

Looks like you are covered by this paragraph.

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  bob300w said:
  al4x said:
if its as a hobby and you trade a couple of guns at a time then don't worry too much, if you go down the dealer route you'll probably need to declare to the revenue your activities and then it simply won't be worth doing. If you were to get pulled up on it plead ignorance and just say you weren't running a business just selling a few air guns you had tidied up

You are probably correct al4x, although ignorance of the law would not be a defence in the unlikely event of it going to court. My point was that, if only for the peace of mind, it's simple enough to ask your HQ, and preferably get it in writing.

 

 

asking gives them the opportunity to try it on and look at you closer. Trading a small number of guns which are fully legal to posses and sell isn't an issue, if he were to set up a shop doing so then yes there would be an issue. Its like many things you're not meant to do jobs for cash and declare absolutely all earnings but who does?:wub:??

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  al4x said:
  bob300w said:
  al4x said:
if its as a hobby and you trade a couple of guns at a time then don't worry too much, if you go down the dealer route you'll probably need to declare to the revenue your activities and then it simply won't be worth doing. If you were to get pulled up on it plead ignorance and just say you weren't running a business just selling a few air guns you had tidied up

You are probably correct al4x, although ignorance of the law would not be a defence in the unlikely event of it going to court. My point was that, if only for the peace of mind, it's simple enough to ask your HQ, and preferably get it in writing.

 

 

asking gives them the opportunity to try it on and look at you closer. Trading a small number of guns which are fully legal to posses and sell isn't an issue, if he were to set up a shop doing so then yes there would be an issue. Its like many things you're not meant to do jobs for cash and declare absolutely all earnings but who does?;)??

:whistling:Undeclared earnings? I'm sure that I don't understand what you mean :wub:

If you read my last post you will see that Peter is in the clear anyway, as the guns that advertises on this forum are early 1900's.

The VCRA acts do not specify a shop, as below;

.31 Prohibition on sale or transfer of air weapons except by registered dealers (1) In subsection (1) of section 3 of the 1968 Act (offence for a person other than a registered firearms dealer to sell etc. a firearm or ammunition by way of trade or business), at the end of paragraph (:) insert “or

© sells or transfers an air weapon, exposes such a weapon for sale or transfer or has such a weapon in his possession for sale or transfer,â€.

(2) In section 40(2) of that Act (which excludes air weapons from the requirements to keep a register of transactions), omit the words from “to firearms†to “thereinâ€.

(3) In section 57(4) of that Act (interpretation), in the definition of “firearms dealerâ€, for the words from “manufactures†onwards substitute—

“(a) manufactures, sells, transfers, repairs, tests or proves firearms or ammunition to which section 1 of this Act applies or shot guns; or

(:good: sells or transfers air weapons.â€

Look it up for yourself; http://www.opsi.gov.uk/ACTS/acts2006/ukpga...5#pt2-pb5-l1g38

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Many thanks lads for all your input.

scaremongering tactics from my local gunshop by the seems of it.

I only buy old guns to fill up my time doing them up, it can take me 3 months to do up a gun.

I enjoy it.

I believe to be a trader or a dealer you have to make a profit.

this would be a first for me. money does'nt come into it.

if you look into it.

buy say an old webley hawk rough for say £25 add on the time and fuel fetching it . spend £10 for front sight, £25 for rear sight

thats £60 plus fuel, and now youve got to strip the stock reblue the barrel another £6 for blue gel.

stain and oil or polish the stock.

not forgeting springs and washers . PROFIT WHAT THE HELL IS THAT.

no I ar,nt a dealer they make money out of the likes of us poor ****. :wub:;)

Now after writing this lament I contacted my local fao,

he tells me a new law has come into force called the violent crime reduction act for the control of air weapons.

He states this is mainly to stop the flow of air guns from, second hand shops car booters etc.

he is going to look up the aforesaid law and send it to me via E mail.

as soon as I get it I will post a copy.

Edited by peter-peter
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The key is the words "by way of trade".

 

If you buy a gun with the intention of selling it for a profit, you are in trade.

 

If you sell off your much loved collection of 100 guns because otherwise the loft will collapse, you are doing private sales and not trading.

 

In essence, selling off what you have collected is not trade, but buying just one gun with the purpose of turning a profit is.

 

Realistically, the rule of thumb seems to be about 6 guns a year, buy and sell any more than that and seek advice on registration.

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  fujijon said:
  peter-peter said:
since I retired I spend most of my time renovating old air rifles.

most are for myself but some surplus to requirements.

I am told by my local gun shop I would need a rfd licence to sell any on.

advice please.

 

 

Sportsmans Association SAGBNI member

BASC member

 

There are no restrictions on Private sales - irrespective of age - the law ONLY requires an 'airgun rfd ' if the person is doing his selling 'BY WAY OF TRADE ' - hobbyists , thankfully do not come into this .

 

Not many know this - but most Gunshops are allowed to ignore the face to face sale law if the gun is older than 1939 - BASC has a long list somplied with the Home Office showing vintage airguns tha Can be posted direct .

If you find a Gunshop with an airgun you want made prioer to this date - thye can post direct - if you can convince them ...

 

 

Age of the buyer not the seller....It is the sellers responsibility to ensure the buyer is of legal age to purchase an airgun.. :blink:

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Whether or not you need a RFD license, the fact remains they won't give you one if you are not selling them by way of trade or business.

 

:blink:

 

If you look up the ACPO document it shows that you need a business plan and everything before you can apply for an RFD ticket.

 

I really don't think this would apply to you!

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from my local fao.

Peter,

 

The Violent Crime Reduction Act 2006 amended subsection 1 of section 3 of the Firearms Act 1968. (which says It is an offence for a person other than a registered firearms dealer to sell etc a firearm or ammunition by way of trade or business.) to include a new paragraph.

© or, sells or transfers an air weapon, exposes such a weapon for sale, or transfer, or has such a weapon in his possession, for sale or transfer.

 

Firearm Dealer is described as a person who manufactures, sells, transfer, repairs, tests, or proves firearms or ammunition to which section applies (Rifles & Bullets) or shotguns, or sells or transfers air weapons.

 

I think, but its only my interpretation, that it means By way of trade or business. I suppose the point to prove is, When does an hobby become a business.

 

RS

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